[MPEG-OTSPEC] [EXTERNAL] Re: Two GSUB Proposals for OFF: 'cabp' and 'hypy'

Fri Mar 1 00:00:04 CET 2024

I’m not sure why standardization of transliteration conventions is being mentioned. An OT feature would simply be providing a way for content authors to access particular glyph variants from a font to suit their typographic preference.

Peter

From: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at> on behalf of Hin-Tak Leung via mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>
Date: Thursday, February 29, 2024 at 3:56 PM
To: mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>, suzuki toshiya <mpsuzuki at hiroshima-u.ac.jp>
Cc: Eiso CHAN <eisoch at 126.com>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Two GSUB Proposals for OFF: 'cabp' and 'hypy'
That's especially true in mainland China where the teaching of spoken English is generally poor (and even deprecated) and subjected to local /personal variations. Not sure what is the intended audience of this kind of standardisation - is it for non-Chinese learning Chinese as a non-native language?

There is also rumours that English is to be banned / deprecated / not taught in junior schools.

On Thursday, 29 February 2024 at 22:44:16 GMT, Hin-Tak Leung via mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at> wrote:

For those who want to read the source material, it seems that the canonical sources for GBZ 40637 might be
https://www.chinesestandard.net/AMP/English.amp.aspx/GBZ40637-2021

https://openstd.samr.gov.cn/bzgk/gb/newGbInfo?hcno=52E2DE28D439C1937EE09AE4B5AA615B

For the English and Chinese version of it respectively (behind pay walls), and a somewhat reliable Chinese version available for download at:

https://archive.org/details/GB-Z40637-2021/page/n5/mode/1up

I am mostly with Ken Lunde on this: transliteration itself is a work-around (trying to approximate one language's sound with another), and diacritics on transliteration is a refinement of a workaround... for actual scholarly work, the traditional way of indicating the pronunciation of a rare word in Chinese is to say "XY 切" where you indicates the starting consonant and the ending vowel with two common native words.e.g. my surname "梁"'s Cantonese pronunciation might be written down as "連揚切", where you take the consonant of the first (連"leen") and join with the ending vowel of another ("揚""yeung") to form "leung". Most people can't quite pronounce English "leung" correctly anyway, so the traditional way of annotating it as e.g. "連揚切" would be preferable... it is somewhat a lost cause to try to standardise on hyphenation and diacritics of transliterations...

On Thursday, 29 February 2024 at 14:16:26 GMT, suzuki toshiya via mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at> wrote:

Dear Eiso, Fuji-san,

I checked 現代漢語拼音方案2012 available at

http://edu.shandong.gov.cn/attach/0/b72295c44ff442c8b333a481f524dbe9.pdf

I guess, the glyphs you want to care might be:

"a" in "ai" (哀), "uan" (弯), "Van" (冤) in 韻母表
"g" in "ang" (昂), "eng" (亨的韵母), "ieng" (英), "ueng" (翁), "veng" (雍) in 韻母表

Am I understanding correctly?

漢語拼音方案1958 (I'm unsure the source of this scanned image):

http://www.moe.gov.cn/ewebeditor/uploadfile/2015/03/02/20150302165814246.pdf

there is no clear distinction of the typeface for "a" & "g".

A distinction of "a" is mentioned in the 四、声調符号, special "a" is used for 軽声,
maybe it would be the update introduced in 2012.

But yet I'm unsure about the background to distinguish "g".

Regards,
mpsuzuki

On 2024/02/29 22:28, 陈永聪 via mpeg-otspec wrote:
> Fuji-San,
>
> Thank you for your comments. The most official materials for Hanyu Pinyin forms are 汉语拼音方案 and 现代汉语词典.
>
> Eiso
> ---- Replied Message ----
>  From    Takaaki Fuji 藤 貴亮<tfuji at morisawa.co.jp<mailto:tfuji at morisawa.co.jp>><mailto:tfuji at morisawa.co.jp>
> Date    02/29/2024 下午6:45
> To      陈永聪 <eisoch at 126.com<mailto:eisoch at 126.com>><mailto:eisoch at 126.com>
> Cc      mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>><mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>
> Subject Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Two GSUB Proposals for OFF: 'cabp' and 'hypy'
> Dear Eiso,
>
> I'm just curious, but for ‘hypy’, is there any good source I can look at for the ‘official' glyph forms of Hanyu Pinyin?
>
> If I understand the issue correctly, ‘hypy’ is not only about the Futura-like one-story a/g shown in Example, but also the tone marks are preferred to have a 'reverse-modulation’; while an acute is always stroked from top to bottom as a Latin accent, as a Pinyin mark it goes upwards from left to right to illustrate the second/rising tone. I imagine this conflict/divergence has long been such an issue in a dual-script situation, so switching between the two via GSUB sounds like a great improvement to me!
>
> Thank you,
>
> Takaaki Fuji
>
>> On Feb 26, 2024, at 9:38, 陈永聪 via mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>> wrote:
>>
>> This is my first proposal for OFF. Please see http://cloud.caaph.com:10121/f/fed7bd2e3d/
>> I suggest adding two GSUB features. 'cabp' is used to support GB/Z 40637—2021, 'hypy' is used to support the special glyphs forms used for Hanyu Pinyin.
>>
>> If you have any suggestions or feedbacks, please let me know.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Eiso_______________________________________________
>> mpeg-otspec mailing list
>> mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>
>> https://lists.aau.at/mailman/listinfo/mpeg-otspec
>
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