<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Hiragana and Katakana have separate Unicode codepoints and their OpenType shaping behaviors are very similar. </div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">I know this is a somewhat far-fetched and simplistic comparison, but (technically and visually, but not linguistcally or culturally) the relationship between Hiragana and Katakana *to me* seems to be a bit similar to the relationship between uppercase and lowercase Latin letters — the characters correspond to each other, but one is more "square" and the other more "round". Even their use scenario is a bit similar — in most Latin-based languages, using upper- vs. lowercase as first letter in the word signals the difference between a common and a proper noun, while in Japanese, the kanas signal a native or a foreign word. To me, it's conceptually similar. But this is irrelevant for this topic :) </div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">In Unicode, Hiragana and Katakana are classified as separate scripts, in OpenType, they share one script tag. There is nothing wrong with that by itself — the OpenType script tags are primarily a mechanism to activate a certain "script-specific processing sub-engine" within the OpenType Layout engine, and both kana variants can be processed with the same sub-engine because their behavioral logic is practically the same. </div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">So I'm not proposing to inteoduce separate script tags for Hiragana and Katakana, I'm merely suggesting a change to how the OpenType script registry is *presented* in the published spec. </div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Best,</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Adam<br><br>Sent from my mobile phone.</div><div><br>On 31.03.2016, at 21:34, Ken Lunde <a href="mailto:lunde@adobe.com">lunde@adobe.com</a> [mpeg-OTspec] <<a href="mailto:mpeg-OTspec-noreply@yahoogroups.com">mpeg-OTspec-noreply@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<span style="display:none"> </span>
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>Leonardo,
<br>
<br>
I still don't understand why "kanji" is in this discussion. The current table lists Hiragana and Katakana, two Japanese syllabaries with about 100 characters each, as separate entries in the first column, and both resolve to the same script tag, 'kana'. Hiragana and Katakana can be collectively referred to as Kana, and the OpenType script tag is effectively doing the same thing. I have no strong preference for consolidating the Hiragana and Katakana entries, which having nothing to do with Kanji in that they represent a separate script, and made the suggestion in order to avoid confusion, such as what Adam experienced, in the future.
<br>
<br>
And yes, I know Japan and Japanese culture. It's the essence of what I have been doing at Adobe for three months shy of 25 years.
<br>
<br>
Best...
<br>
<br>
-- Ken
<br>
<br>
> On Mar 31, 2016, at 12:26 PM, Leonardo Chiariglione <<a href="mailto:leonardo@chiariglione.org">leonardo@chiariglione.org</a>> wrote:
<br>
>
<br>
> Ken,
<br>
> Unfortunately cultural matters cannot be handled in pieces. Kanji is (or used to be) an integral part of Japanese culture much of it is expressed in a judicious combination of kanji, hiragana and katakana.
<br>
> I was just trying to convey the message that, in my humble opinion, bundling hiragana and katakana does not make much sense.
<br>
> On the other hand, because this is (or used to be) such a complicated issue, even for someone who thinks he knows Japan, is make a step back.
<br>
> Leonardo
<br>
>
<br>
> PS: I cannot avoid remembering something that happened at my first meeting of SC 2 (around 1989, I believe), which I attended because at that time MPEG was an experts group of SC 2/WG 8.
<br>
> There was a fight between the Japanese delegation on "4 bytes against 2 bytes", an apparently technical issue with deep cultural implications
<br>
>
<br>
> Learn about CEDEO in a video bridget
<br>
> Watch video bridgets of famous cities: London, Madrid, Rome, Turin
<br>
> Create your own video bridget: <a href="http://www.wimbridge.tv/">http://www.wimbridge.tv/</a>
<br>
>
<br>
>
<br>
> -----Original Message-----
<br>
> From: Ken Lunde [<a href="mailto:lunde@adobe.com">mailto:lunde@adobe.com</a>]
<br>
> Sent: Thursday, 31 March, 2016 19:46
<br>
> To: Leonardo Chiariglione <<a href="mailto:leonardo@chiariglione.org">leonardo@chiariglione.org</a>>
<br>
> Cc: OTspec <<a href="mailto:mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com">mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com</a>>
<br>
> Subject: Re: script tags update (Re: [mpeg-OTspec] Digest Number 549)
<br>
>
<br>
> Leonardo,
<br>
>
<br>
> I am a bit at a loss as to how 漢字 (kanji) entered the discussion, because that is a completely separate script that is covered by the "hani" script tag. OpenType treats the two kana syllabaries, hiragana and katakana, as a single script whose tag is "kana," and my suggestion is to simply consolidate the two separate "kana" script tag entries into a single entry that combines them in a meaningful way, such as using "Kana (Hiragana and Katakana)" in the first column of the table in question.
<br>
>
<br>
> Best...
<br>
>
<br>
> -- Ken
<br>
>
<br>
>> On Mar 31, 2016, at 10:26 AM, Leonardo Chiariglione <<a href="mailto:leonardo@chiariglione.org">leonardo@chiariglione.org</a>> wrote:
<br>
>>
<br>
>> I certainly do not claim to represent a universal Japanese feeling on the subject (if one exists), but my years spent in Japan and mi lifelong acquaintance with Japanese friends lead me to say that it probably makes sense to distinguish between漢字(kanji) and仮名(kana) because the former is iconic and the other is syllabic, even though in a normal sentence漢字 and仮名 are mixed. I am not sure it makes practical sense to use a single word – kana – to indicate two different alphabets which are used to represent the same sounds but with a different context, even though, again, many sentences contain both types of kana next to kanji.
<br>
>> Leonardo
<br>
>>
<br>
>> Learn about CEDEO in a video bridget
<br>
>> Watch video bridgets of famous cities: London, Madrid, Rome, Turin
<br>
>> Create your own video bridget: <a href="http://www.wimbridge.tv/">http://www.wimbridge.tv/</a>
<br>
>>
<br>
>>
<br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com">mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com</a> [<a href="mailto:mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com">mailto:mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com</a>]
<br>
>> On Behalf Of Ken Lunde <a href="mailto:lunde@adobe.com">lunde@adobe.com</a> [mpeg-OTspec]
<br>
>> Sent: Thursday, 31 March, 2016 16:58
<br>
>> To: Leonardo Chiariglione <<a href="mailto:leonardo@chiariglione.org">leonardo@chiariglione.org</a>>
<br>
>> Cc: OTspec <<a href="mailto:mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com">mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com</a>>
<br>
>> Subject: Re: script tags update (Re: [mpeg-OTspec] Digest Number 549)
<br>
>>
<br>
>>
<br>
>> Leonardo,
<br>
>>
<br>
>> Given that the "kana" script tag collectively corresponds to ひらがな and カタカナ, it makes some sense to replace the two entries for one for the collective name, カナ, being sure to include ひらがな and カタカナ in parentheses.
<br>
>>
<br>
>> -- Ken
<br>
>>
<br>
>>> On Mar 31, 2016, at 7:48 AM, Leonardo Chiariglione <<a href="mailto:leonardo@chiariglione.org">leonardo@chiariglione.org</a>> wrote:
<br>
>>>
<br>
>>> Why 3 ways? There are only ひらがな and カタカナ
<br>
>>> Leonardo
<br>
>>>
<br>
>>> Learn about CEDEO in a video bridget Watch video bridgets of famous
<br>
>>> cities: London, Madrid, Rome, Turin Create your own video bridget:
<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.wimbridge.tv/">http://www.wimbridge.tv/</a>
<br>
>>>
<br>
>>>
<br>
>>> From: <a href="mailto:mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com">mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com</a>
<br>
>>> [<a href="mailto:mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com">mailto:mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com</a>] On Behalf Of Ken Lunde
<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:lunde@adobe.com">lunde@adobe.com</a> [mpeg-OTspec]
<br>
>>> Sent: Thursday, 31 March, 2016 15:29
<br>
>>> To: OTspec (<a href="mailto:mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com">mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com</a>)
<br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com">mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com</a>>
<br>
>>> Subject: Re: script tags update (Re: [mpeg-OTspec] Digest Number
<br>
>>> 549)
<br>
>>>
<br>
>>>
<br>
>>> One way to address this is to combine them onto a single entry as follows:
<br>
>>>
<br>
>>> Kana (Hiragana and Katakana) kana
<br>
>>>
<br>
>>> Another way is to add the above as a new entry, which allows the "kana" script tag to be found in all three ways: Hiragana, Kana, and Katakana.
<br>
>>>
<br>
>>> The first one seems simpler, and should not cause confusion.
<br>
>>>
<br>
>>> -- Ken
<br>
>>>
<br>
>>>> On Mar 31, 2016, at 3:29 AM, Hin-Tak Leung <a href="mailto:htl10@users.sourceforge.net">htl10@users.sourceforge.net</a> [mpeg-OTspec] <<a href="mailto:mpeg-OTspec-noreply@yahoogroups.com">mpeg-OTspec-noreply@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:
<br>
>>>>
<br>
>>>> --------------------------------------------
<br>
>>>> On Thu, 31/3/16, <a href="mailto:mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com">mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com</a><<a href="mailto:mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com">mpeg-OTspec@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:
<br>
>>>>
<br>
>>>>> Re: script tags update
<br>
>>>>> Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:45 pm (PDT) .
<br>
>>>>> Posted by: "Adam Twardoch (Lists)" adamtwardoch
<br>
>>>>
<br>
>>>>> 1. I notice that on
<br>
>>>>
<br>
>>>>> <a href="https://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/scripttags.htm">https://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/scripttags.htm</a>
<br>
>>>>
<br>
>>>>> the script tag "kana" is listed twice, once as "Hiragana" and
<br>
>>>>> once as "Katakana". Is this intentional?
<br>
>>>>
<br>
>>>> It most likely is. Assuming that you may not be familiar with the
<br>
>>>> Japanese language, Hiragana and Katakana are the phonetic part of
<br>
>>>> the Japanese character set (as opposed to the pictoral Kanji's),
<br>
>>>> one for denoting native words and the other for denoting - the
<br>
>>>> sound of - foreign words. Say, an English word could be
<br>
>>>> represented by its pronounciation approximation as Katakana's, rather than as Latin glyphs, in a written paragraph.
<br>
>>>>
<br>
>>>> The two are collectively called Kana's . It is often used
<br>
>>>> collectively this way to distinguish from the Kanji's, the Chinese-derived pictoral part of the character set.
<br>
>>>> Phonetic vs pictoral.
<br>
>>>>
<br>
>>>>
<br>
>>>
<br>
>>>
<br>
>>
<br>
>>
<br>
>
<br>
>
<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!-- end group email -->
</div></blockquote></body></html>