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Forwarding per David's request.<br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">Begin forwarded message:</div>
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<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">From:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">David Lemon via OpenType <<a href="mailto:opentype-listmaster@indx.co.uk" class="">opentype-listmaster@indx.co.uk</a>><br class="">
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<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Subject:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re: [OpenType] More than 20 Stylistic Sets!</b><br class="">
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<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Date:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">March 20, 2019 at 4:53:21 PM PDT<br class="">
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</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><<a href="mailto:listmaster@indx.co.uk" class="">listmaster@indx.co.uk</a>><br class="">
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<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Reply-To:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><<a href="mailto:opentype-list@indx.co.uk" class="">opentype-list@indx.co.uk</a>><br class="">
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<div class="">Message from OpenType list:<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
My thanks to John H for pointing out the pressure point. Of course I completely agree; I've never been a fan of appropriating layout features for unintended uses, and Character Variant certainly should be supported. What I'd really like to see would be to have
"the rest" of Stylistic Sets added to the spec, and to have Character Variants supported in significant app's.<br class="">
<br class="">
If needed I'm willing to write the proposal. But I'd still be curious to see input from at least someone at Microsoft, since they were the ones who wanted to clamp at 20. (I wasn't going to point a finger, but John surfaced it so what the heck.)<br class="">
<br class="">
[Ken, would mind you mind forwarding to the MPEG list? I seem to have broken something in that regard.]<br class="">
<br class="">
mahalo,<br class="">
David L<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
-----Original Message-----<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">From: Ken Lunde via OpenType <<a href="mailto:opentype-listmaster@indx.co.uk" class="">opentype-listmaster@indx.co.uk</a>><br class="">
Sent: Mar 20, 2019 12:51 PM<br class="">
To: <a href="mailto:listmaster@indx.co.uk" class="">listmaster@indx.co.uk</a><br class="">
Subject: Re: [mpeg-OTspec] Re: [OpenType] More than 20 Stylistic Sets!<br class="">
<br class="">
Message from OpenType list:<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Thomas,<br class="">
<br class="">
With regard to your trivia statement, that is easily remedied by registering 'ss00' and 'cv00' at the same time as registering 'ss21' through 'ss99'. ;-)<br class="">
<br class="">
Regards...<br class="">
<br class="">
-- Ken<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On Mar 20, 2019, at 3:47 PM, Thomas Phinney <a href="mailto:tphinney@cal.berkeley.edu" class="">
tphinney@cal.berkeley.edu</a> [mpeg-OTspec] <<a href="mailto:mpeg-OTspec-noreply@yahoogroups.com" class="">mpeg-OTspec-noreply@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Back at the time, Adobe (represented in the discussions by me and David Lemon) was in favor of doing ss01-99, and Microsoft objected—for much the reasons John suggests.<br class="">
<br class="">
Of course, that was 15 years ago, and thinking may have evolved. I remain in favor of allowing up to 99. If not all apps can expose them all, that would be too bad, but I would rather have them in the spec, and apps encouraged to evolve their interfaces, rather
than not.<br class="">
<br class="">
Trivia: I believe you can tell that this feature was at least partly created by non-programmers, because the numbering starts at 01 instead of 00. ;)<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 3:07 PM John Hudson <a href="mailto:john@tiro.ca" class="">
john@tiro.ca</a> [mpeg-OTspec] <<a href="mailto:mpeg-OTspec-noreply@yahoogroups.com" class="">mpeg-OTspec-noreply@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
On 20032019 12:40 pm, Ken Lunde <a href="mailto:lunde@adobe.com" class="">lunde@adobe.com</a> [mpeg-OTspec] wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">At this point, based on the discussions thus far, I doubt that anyone<br class="">
can provide a convincing argument against registering 'ss21' through<br class="">
'ss99' as additional Stylistic Set features.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
Well...<br class="">
<br class="">
The original intention of the Stylistic Set features was to provide<br class="">
access for coordinated sets of design variants of complete or<br class="">
significant portions of a character subset, e.g. all lowercase letters,<br class="">
grouped by shared style. The initial use case was the OpenType-ification <br class="">
of the Poetica and Zapfino families, in which the stylistic sets had<br class="">
been shipped as separate fonts in their pre-OT incarnations. The<br class="">
decision to limit the number of Stylistic Set features to twenty was<br class="">
influenced by a couple of factors: one was that the number of stylistic<br class="">
sets in Poetica and Zapfino was four, so twenty seemed like quite a lot, <br class="">
and the other was that a smaller number was more likely to get buy-in<br class="">
from applications needing to give some kind of UI real-estate to the<br class="">
features, possibly à la InDesign with a menu listing (I'll leave aside<br class="">
the whole other topic of poor UI design for OpenType Layout).<br class="">
<br class="">
What began to happen fairly soon after the Stylistic Set features were<br class="">
registered and began to show up in applications is that font makers<br class="">
began using them to provide access to variants of individual characters<br class="">
instead of sets of characters, e.g. multiple variants of an ampersand,<br class="">
each mapped to a different Stylistic Set feature. And used in this way<br class="">
the features very quickly get used up and people start asking why there<br class="">
aren't more.<br class="">
<br class="">
Meanwhile, SIL registered the 0–99 Character Variant features, which not<br class="">
only, by design, provide access to variants of individual glyphs, but<br class="">
also recommend doing so using GSUB one-to-one-of-many lookups, rather<br class="">
than one variant per feature. [It is technically possible, of course, to <br class="">
build Stylistic Set feature using such lookups, but application UI for<br class="">
these features tends only to expose the first enumerated variant.]<br class="">
<br class="">
The Character Variant features — including enumerated variants — are<br class="">
supported in CSS, but not in common desktop applications, and so font<br class="">
makers have continued to use Stylistic Set features to access individual <br class="">
character variants, and continued to complain that twenty isn't enough<br class="">
to accommodate this use.<br class="">
<br class="">
I don't know if this is a 'convincing argument', but it seems to me that <br class="">
if one is going to have to ask application makers to add support for 80<br class="">
new Stylistic Set features, why not ask them to support the existing 100 <br class="">
Character Variant features instead?<br class="">
<br class="">
JH<br class="">
<br class="">
--<br class="">
<br class="">
John Hudson<br class="">
Tiro Typeworks Ltd www..<a href="http://tiro.com" class="">tiro.com</a><br class="">
Salish Sea, BC <a href="mailto:tiro@tiro.com" class="">tiro@tiro.com</a><br class="">
<br class="">
NOTE: In the interests of productivity, I am currently<br class="">
dealing with email on only two days per week, usually<br class="">
Monday and Thursday unless this schedule is disrupted<br class="">
by travel. If you need to contact me urgently, please<br class="">
use some other method of communication. Thank you.<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
--<br class="">
“If I don’t use fancy words, you won’t know I’m an expert.”<br class="">
—Marcel Matley, document examiner<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
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