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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">In terms of defining scope, I would
employ a broad view of typographic text display. There are
intersections and mutual dependencies to be mapped with text
encoding and text interaction (input and editing), but I think a
natural scope can be defined in terms of the space where font
interaction is necessary to achieve overall layout and display of
text, i.e. everywhere from script segmentation to justification.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">That's the scope I suggested in looking
'beyond shaping' in my IUC39 presentation:</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><a
href="http://tiro.com/John/Hudson_IUC39_Beyond_Shaping.pdf">http://tiro.com/John/Hudson_IUC39_Beyond_Shaping.pdf</a></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">To the aspects discussed there, I would
add text block orientation, i.e. layout directionality as distinct
from character and string directionality.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">JH<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thank
you Liang and Simon for starting the discussion!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Since
we are going to embark on the exploration activity to
determine the scope of this future work, it is extremely
important to identify what relevant information is currently
missing [that affects interoperability of fonts and
implementations] and if it needs to be specified as a formal
standard. It is also important to determine who currently
possesses the relevant knowledge and experience, and is
willing to contribute to this important work. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
also agree with you that it is very valuable to identify all
related documentation, but we also need to be aware of its
current status (public / opensource / proprietary /
copyrights, etc.) Knowing what we have as a starting point
(such as e.g. USE document:
</span><a
href="https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/typography/script-development/use"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/typography/script-development/use</a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
and all other resources Liang has mentioned) and whether any
existing / prior documentation could be contributed for us
to use will not only give us a head start, but also helps
come quickly to a decision on whether we need to consider
publishing formal script-specific text layout
specifications, or if it may be more appropriate to publish
it as OFF/OpenType implementation guidelines, or both.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">All
these components – the information about what we have to
start with, who can contribute to this development [and
whether they are willing to do so], and what we believe the
outcome of this work should be – will help us greatly to
decide what organization (Unicode Consortium and this ISO WG
were initially named for consideration) would be best
suitable to be selected as the venue for this future work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thank
you,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Vladimir<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
mpeg-otspec <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec-bounces@lists.aau.at"><mpeg-otspec-bounces@lists.aau.at></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>?? Liang Hai<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 29, 2020 10:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [MPEG-OTSPEC] Defining the text shaping
working group’s scope<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif">(If
this topic confuses you, see the appended background
introduction.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif">In
order to figure out the scope we care about, how about we
start with maintaining a list of existing projects that
are intended to complement the OT spec (and its
semi-standard specs such as the USE spec)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif">In
terms of my personal concerns, one of the most important
projects today is this documentation by Nate Willis, et
al, which is focused on documenting how OTL should
actually be implemented for each complex script, so
developers can actually implement compatible shapers:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif">Documentation
of OpenType shaping behavior</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><a
href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/QFjcClYmL2U2KB9mIGIQRV"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/n8willis/opentype-shaping-documents</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif">On
the other hand, my main personal interest is about
clarifying how Unicode encoded complex scripts (especially
the Indic ones) should be implemented with OTL fonts.
(Note the difference from Nate’s project, which is about
how to shape texts using these fonts.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif">I
believe we need to document a reference interface between
orthographical correctness and typographical concerns. The
whole process from Unicode text up to this interface can
be vetted by experts (especially for compatibility and
reasonable fallback behavior) and automated by tooling,
while font producers are left with a straightforward glyph
set to fill. This will greatly improve reliability of
complex scripts’ fonts, and also remove the unreasonable
obstacle that prevents native users to implement their own
scripts in fonts. Some knowledge collected during this
effort should even be incorporated into the Unicode
Standard, if it’s relevant and the community can achieve
an agreement on it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif">The
current early draft is still very sketchy, but I expect to
significantly update it and transform it into a
tutorial-based document (because concrete instructions
will be much easier to read) in a couple of months:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif">Indic
text shaping for type designers</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><a
href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/_XWACmZn6YIjYm08HOyLHI"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/typotheque/text-shaping</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"SF Pro
Text",serif"><br>
Best,<br>
</span><span style="font-family:"MS Gothic"">梁海</span><span
style="font-family:"SF Pro Text",serif"> Liang
Hai<br>
<a
href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/UOpPCn5oXgs7LJygUNFAcv"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lianghai.github.io</a></span><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif">---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif">Some
context for subscribers of this mailing list who didn’t
participate in yesterday’s meeting:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif">There’s
a collective effort to seek a clear path forward for
improving the whole text shaping industry (including the
font formats)’s situation. Yesterday there was the first
meeting, and the next meeting (open to all) is scheduled
for four weeks later (25 Aug, 13:30–14:50 UTC-4). The
following document contains yesterday’s meeting notes:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif">Text
Shaping Working Group (working title)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><a
href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/813pCo20KjhrG7o5c6dpOk"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KoknOb0IMAPeiLhifvc_AqB7s3rs6VKOsTQg_oCDypQ/edit?usp=sharing</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"SFProText-Regular",serif">By
the end of the meeting we decided this list could be a
temporary home for our discussions because of the
significant overlap of interest. I hope we’re
<i>not</i> spamming you guys.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
John Hudson
Tiro Typeworks Ltd <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.tiro.com">www.tiro.com</a>
Salish Sea, BC <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tiro@tiro.com">tiro@tiro.com</a>
NOTE: In the interests of productivity, I am currently
dealing with email on only two days per week, usually
Monday and Thursday unless this schedule is disrupted
by travel. If you need to contact me urgently, please
use some other method of communication. Thank you.</pre>
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