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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
So, say that Peter Constable proposes to update the COLR and CPAL table definitions, based on the work done in the Google Fonts github repo and then the Microsoft OpenType website, so that a 'beta' OT 1.9.0 document is available from
<a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/txSiCYEnxyt3Jkr3IGunxu">microsoft.com/typography.</a>..
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">For changes to be made in the ISO OFF text – we need to start an amendment process. We are not limited to any particular single topic – an amendment is usually
a collection of changes that address different parts of the standard. The style of the amendment document is simply a collection of the editorial instructions – replace paragraph X with Y, update the table A in subclause N with the new one below, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
What is the best way to get those new table definitions proposed - is a whole chapter "all at once" best?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It depends on the substance of the changes we would like to propose. If we introduce significant changes to the existing text of the subclause, we can simply
direct users to consider the whole subsclause to be replaced; if we are adding few more paragraphs to an existing text, we can simply make it an implicit instruction to insert additional paragraphs, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Like I said, many different changes can be bundled into a single amendment document, and because the number of amendments is limited (we only have one more chance
to amend the 4<sup>th</sup> edition OFF text before we have to produce a consolidated 5<sup>th</sup> edition text) – I suggest that we should consider all the changes we are currently working on to be part of the same amendment document. Once we have a list
of changes and have reviewed and agreed on the text for each one – I will prepare a consolidated proposal for review and approval of the AHG and submit it to the WG for approval as a new work item.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Vlad<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Dave Crossland <dcrossland@google.com>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 10, 2020 11:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Levantovsky, Vladimir <Vladimir.Levantovsky@monotype.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Consensus Protocol<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Vlad! I think this is helpful, yet for me it adds more questions than it answers :) In the same way this list is called "mpeg-otspec" not "mpeg-offspec", the meaning of "consensus" as I've understood it is very different to the defined
meaning you provided, which seems limited to the activities of the formal WG, and not the AHG. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Since the AHG can not conduct formal voting procedures, but can conduct "straw polls", I'd like to suggest we use Github Issues and Reactions to manage that straw polling. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It is disappointing to me that WG can decide things by a 2/3 majority vote, yet (AFAICT) the voters are anonymous and apparently bound to keep everything confidential. But, I guess as long as there are no objections at the WG level, this
is rather academic. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">So, say that Peter Constable proposes to update the COLR and CPAL table definitions, based on the work done in the Google Fonts github repo and then the Microsoft OpenType website, so that a 'beta' OT 1.9.0
document is available from <a href="https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/txSiCYEnxyt3Jkr3IGunxu">
microsoft.com/typography.</a>.. What is the best way to get those new table definitoins proposed - is a whole chapter "all at once" best?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 9:57 PM Levantovsky, Vladimir <<a href="mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky@monotype.com">Vladimir.Levantovsky@monotype.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hello AHG,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I am back from vacation to a huge backlog of emails. Vacations are great, coming back … not so much
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">L</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">(I am not looking for sympathy, just stating the obvious. Bear with me as I sift through the pile.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">See below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 1:00 PM Dave Crossland wrote:<br>
</span>On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 11:42 AM Levantovsky, Vladimir <<a href="mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky@monotype.com" target="_blank">Vladimir.Levantovsky@monotype.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">This AHG has always been striving to (and, so far, has been successful at) reaching consensus decisions,
resolving objections with edits and proposed changes that we as a group can agree on. When consensus decision cannot be reached, the escalation path is simple – bring it to the attention of the WG.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:11.55pt">
What are the examples/cases where that escalation path has been used in the past? Or is this something that only WG can know about?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In this AHG, we never had a situation where consensus decisions had not been reached, so I can’t really
offer a concrete example. But it is not unusual for the WG to consider alternative [sometimes, conflicting] proposals where one possible outcome could be adopting one proposal and rejecting the other(s). Usually this is done after due consideration is given,
and the outcome is based on data and factual evidence. In MPEG. It is customary to setup a series of core experiments (where applicable) to determine which of the proposals satisfies stated requirements and to what degree.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In the history of font work in MPEG, this happened only once, in the beginning of the font standard
development, when two competing proposals were brought up for consideration – a font format based on OpenType vs. PFR. PFR failed to satisfy requirements related to language coverage and complex script support, and the decision was made to start a new work
item developing a font format standard based on OpenType.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:11.55pt">
It seems to me that resolving all objections and reaching consensus in the AHG can be flexible, as proposed above, and thus can for this group be far superior to the laborious and bureaucratic formal WG process.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I agree wholeheartedly! I think what sets us apart is the proven ability to work towards the common
goal where all the opinions are heard and where pragmatism and practical considerations trump ambitions and feelings.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">For the reasons described above, I suggest that the long-standing practice of placing a responsibility
on each individual member to review the proposed changes / comments, and to act within the established and announced timelines should stand as is. Failure to act and to respond in time (a.k.a. silence) is treated as approval!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:11.55pt">
I'm grateful for your thoughtful reply! :) But I am requesting a "protocol", so what I'm really asking for is a set of "if then else" statements and actual dates for periods of time - which can be augmented with software, like the github issue tracker and dashboard
webpage I describe above.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:11.55pt">
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:11.55pt">
The "first principles" of the protocol are clear to me from your reply, but rather abstract. I'd like to get more concrete :)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I think it would be a useful starting point [for the benefit of all members of the AHG] to review formal
ISO definitions of consensus (from ISO/IEC Directives, part 1, subclause 2.5.6):</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="gmail-m313124510593266557bodytextindent1"><span lang="EN-GB">“<b>consensus</b>: General agreement, characterized by the absence of sustained opposition to substantial issues by any important part of the concerned interests and by a process that involves
seeking to take into account the views of all parties concerned and to reconcile any conflicting arguments.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="gmail-m313124510593266557bodytextindent1"><span lang="EN-GB">NOTE Consensus need not imply unanimity.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Also, the following paragraphs describe the process in more details:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="gmail-m313124510593266557msobodytext"><a name="m_313124510593266557__Hlk504667877"><span lang="EN-GB">In the process of reaching consensus, many different points of views will be expressed and addressed as the document evolves. However, “sustained
oppositions” are views expressed at minuted meetings of committee, working group (WG) or other groups (e.g. task forces, advisory groups, etc.) and which are maintained by an important part of the concerned interest and which are incompatible with the committee
consensus. The notion of “concerned interest(s)” will vary depending on the dynamics of the committee and shall therefore be determined by the committee leadership on a case by case basis. The concept of sustained opposition is not applicable in the context
of member body votes on CD, DIS or FDIS since these are subject to the applicable voting rules.</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="gmail-m313124510593266557msobodytext" style="break-after:avoid"><span lang="EN-GB">Those expressing sustained oppositions have a right to be heard and the following approach is recommended when a sustained opposition is declared:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="gmail-m313124510593266557listcontinue1"><span lang="EN-GB">— The leadership shall first assess whether the opposition can be considered a “sustained opposition”, i.e. whether it has been sustained by an important part of the concerned interest.
If this is not the case, the leadership will register the opposition (i.e. in the minutes, records, etc.) and continue to lead the work on the document.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="gmail-m313124510593266557listcontinue1"><span lang="EN-GB">— If the leadership determines that there is a sustained opposition, it is required to try and resolve it in good faith. However, a sustained opposition is not akin to a right to veto.
The obligation to address the sustained oppositions does not imply an obligation to successfully resolve them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The responsibility for assessing whether or not consensus has been reached rests entirely with the leadership. This includes assessing whether there is sustained opposition or whether
any sustained opposition can be resolved without compromising the existing level of consensus on the rest of the document. In such cases, the leadership will register the opposition and continue the work.<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:11.55pt">
<span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Again, this AHG is not in a position to make final resolutions – we are producing proposals and recommendations
that are, when based on AHG consensus, would find their way into WG resolutions and the text of standards/amendments. IF and when a sustained objection is raised, and attempts to devise a mechanism (a core experiment, reference implementation, test cases,
etc.) would not allow us to reach an agreement, THEN the only possible outcome for us would be to document all discussions and views of all interested parties, and bring it to consideration of the WG. We are not in a position to conduct formal voting procedures,
other than a simple straw poll to indicate support for a particular outcome. The final decisions would be made by the WG, most likely after an additional set of mandates is imposed on this AHG to conduct a series of experiments / tests to help collect data
that would be used in final decision making process. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Finally, according to this statement in the Directives</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="gmail-m313124510593266557msobodytext"><span lang="EN-GB">In case of doubt concerning consensus, approval by a two-thirds majority of the P‑members of the technical committee or subcommittee voting may be deemed to be sufficient for the committee draft
to be accepted for registration as an enquiry draft; however every attempt shall be made to resolve negative votes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span class="gmail-m313124510593266557zzzhighlight">Abstentions are excluded when the votes are counted, as well as negative votes not accompanied by technical reasons.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">it is, therefore, in the WG and Subcommittee power to ask for a formal approval by a 2/3 majority of
voting members.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<br>
In the next 17 months (to 1/1/2022) what are the possible pathways that a proposal to change "X" in the OFF spec can take? X could be COLRv1, or 32 bit GIDs, or anything. I'd like to understand a map out of all the pathways. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In our established practice, when a concrete proposal (or a set of proposals) are reviewed and agreed
upon by the group, we would present them to the WG with the recommendation to start a new work item – either a new amendment or a new edition of the OFF standard, where applicable. It can happen at any time [when we feel the proposal(s) are ready to be introduced
as work items, and the only limitation is that the proposals (with the AHG report and recommendations) need to be submitted in due time prior to the scheduled WG meeting (typically, there are four WG meetings a year, with the next one being scheduled on Oct.
12-16, 2020). It is truly up to us to make a determination when a proposal is ready for prime time, and this AHG long record of successful development made it rather easy for us as a community to develop and follow our own schedule, taking into consideration
ISO process requirements (like ballot term requirements for different stages in the standards development process, etc.)
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">However, it is also possible that we can ask the WG to open a new work item (e.g. an amendment) and
create a working draft that remains a WD for as long as we feel is necessary to make further improvements and additions. Only after the WD is deemed sufficiently mature we can recommend its promotion to the next Committee Draft stage, where a ballot approval
process would become necessary.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thank you,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Vlad</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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