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<div>Hmm, sorry that didn't sound right. But the explanation/rationale is that they want a run of Latin glyphs / diacritics to be shaped according to a special-use convention (for the purpose /convention of transliterating chinese) .</div><div><br></div>
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On Saturday, 2 March 2024 at 12:32:43 GMT, Hin-Tak Leung via mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at> wrote:
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<div>No, as far as I understand the proposal, 'hypy' is meant to be the Latin language tag under the Chinese script. They want a different Latin language tag than default, because of certain transliteration-specific typographical conventions.</div><div><br clear="none"></div>
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On Friday, 1 March 2024 at 23:52:24 GMT, Behdad Esfahbod <behdad@behdad.org> wrote:
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<div><div id="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620"><div><div dir="ltr">For the 'hypy' I think it's simply the Chinese language tag under the Latin script. Any reason why not use that as is?<div><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620gmail_signature">behdad<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://behdad.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://behdad.org/</a></div></div><br clear="none"></div></div><br clear="none"><div class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620gmail_quote"><div id="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620yqt98674" class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620yqt1372391882"><div dir="ltr" class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 1, 2024 at 3:10 PM Peter Constable via mpeg-otspec <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;" class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620gmail_quote"><div class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620msg3489830277250026488">
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<p class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;">For both of these proposed features, I’m also wondering why using existing stylistic set features wouldn’t be sufficient.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;">Peter<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"> Hin-Tak Leung <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:htl10@users.sourceforge.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">htl10@users.sourceforge.net</a>>
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<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 1, 2024 3:01 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Peter Constable <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:pconstable@microsoft.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">pconstable@microsoft.com</a>>; Ken Lunde <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:lunde@unicode.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lunde@unicode.org</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> <a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] [EXTERNAL] Re: Two GSUB Proposals for OFF: 'cabp' and 'hypy'<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620MsoNormal"><span>Yes, sorry for derailing that discussion. This feature seems to be raised by one vendor for one intended usage, a relation with a national standard. There are a few existing feature tags of a similar
nature (in Japanese for historical forms). I was just saying that it is somewhat strange to have features tags concerning the Latin glyphs and Latin diacritics in a Chinese font. (and also questioning the relation with the said national standard). IMO it is
a specialised and perhaps even a vendor-specific feature... so I shall point the discussion back: is another vendor likely to want to ship a font with these feature tags?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">On Friday, 1 March 2024 at 18:34:37 GMT, Ken Lunde via mpeg-otspec <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a>> wrote:
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<p class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="ydp7746cf8yiv6652368175ydpe1c0f75eyiv0738410620MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">Peter,<br clear="none">
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That is precisely why I explicitly stated that I had no strong objection to registering said feature, though that seemed to have become lost to the noise. In my mind, the question we should be asking is whether the number of fonts that would likely include
this feature would rise to the level that it would make sense to register it, as opposed to simply using named character variant or stylistic set features for this purpose.<br clear="none">
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Regards...<br clear="none">
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-- Ken<br clear="none">
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> On Feb 29, 2024, at 15:00, Peter Constable via mpeg-otspec <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
> <br clear="none">
> I’m not sure why standardization of transliteration conventions is being mentioned. An OT feature would simply be providing a way for content authors to access particular glyph variants from a font to suit their typographic preference.<br clear="none">
> Peter<br clear="none">
> From: mpeg-otspec <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec-bounces@lists.aau.at" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mpeg-otspec-bounces@lists.aau.at</a>> on behalf of Hin-Tak Leung via mpeg-otspec <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a>><br clear="none">
> Date: Thursday, February 29, 2024 at 3:56 PM<br clear="none">
> To: <a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a> <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a>>, suzuki toshiya <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpsuzuki@hiroshima-u.ac.jp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mpsuzuki@hiroshima-u.ac.jp</a>><br clear="none">
> Cc: Eiso CHAN <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:eisoch@126.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">eisoch@126.com</a>><br clear="none">
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Two GSUB Proposals for OFF: 'cabp' and 'hypy'<br clear="none">
> That's especially true in mainland China where the teaching of spoken English is generally poor (and even deprecated) and subjected to local /personal variations. Not sure what is the intended audience of this kind of standardisation - is it for non-Chinese
learning Chinese as a non-native language?<br clear="none">
> There is also rumours that English is to be banned / deprecated / not taught in junior schools.<br clear="none">
> On Thursday, 29 February 2024 at 22:44:16 GMT, Hin-Tak Leung via mpeg-otspec <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
> For those who want to read the source material, it seems that the canonical sources for GBZ 40637 might be<br clear="none">
> <a shape="rect" href="https://www.chinesestandard.net/AMP/English.amp.aspx/GBZ40637-2021" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
https://www.chinesestandard.net/AMP/English.amp.aspx/GBZ40637-2021</a><br clear="none">
> <a shape="rect" href="https://openstd.samr.gov.cn/bzgk/gb/newGbInfo?hcno=52E2DE28D439C1937EE09AE4B5AA615B" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
https://openstd.samr.gov.cn/bzgk/gb/newGbInfo?hcno=52E2DE28D439C1937EE09AE4B5AA615B</a><br clear="none">
> For the English and Chinese version of it respectively (behind pay walls), and a somewhat reliable Chinese version available for download at:<br clear="none">
> <a shape="rect" href="https://archive.org/details/GB-Z40637-2021/page/n5/mode/1up" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
https://archive.org/details/GB-Z40637-2021/page/n5/mode/1up</a><br clear="none">
> I am mostly with Ken Lunde on this: transliteration itself is a work-around (trying to approximate one language's sound with another), and diacritics on transliteration is a refinement of a workaround... for actual scholarly work, the traditional way of
indicating the pronunciation of a rare word in Chinese is to say "XY </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">切</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">" where you indicates the starting
consonant and the ending vowel with two common native words.e.g. my surname "</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">梁</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">"'s Cantonese pronunciation
might be written down as "</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">連揚切</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">", where you take the consonant of the first (</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">連</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">"leen")
and join with the ending vowel of another ("</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">揚</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">""yeung") to form "leung". Most people can't quite pronounce
English "leung" correctly anyway, so the traditional way of annotating it as e.g. "</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">連揚切</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">" would be preferable...
it is somewhat a lost cause to try to standardise on hyphenation and diacritics of transliterations...<br clear="none">
> On Thursday, 29 February 2024 at 14:16:26 GMT, suzuki toshiya via mpeg-otspec <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
> Dear Eiso, Fuji-san,<br clear="none">
> I checked </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">現代漢語拼音方案</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">2012 available at<br clear="none">
> <a shape="rect" href="http://edu.shandong.gov.cn/attach/0/b72295c44ff442c8b333a481f524dbe9.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
http://edu.shandong.gov.cn/attach/0/b72295c44ff442c8b333a481f524dbe9.pdf</a><br clear="none">
> I guess, the glyphs you want to care might be:<br clear="none">
> "a" in "ai" (</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">哀</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">), "uan" (</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">弯</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">),
"Van" (</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">冤</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">) in
</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">韻母表</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);"><br clear="none">
> "g" in "ang" (</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">昂</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">), "eng" (</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">亨的韵母</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">),
"ieng" (</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">英</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">), "ueng" (</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">翁</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">),
"veng" (</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">雍</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">) in
</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">韻母表</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);"><br clear="none">
> Am I understanding correctly?<br clear="none">
> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">漢語拼音方案</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">1958 (I'm unsure the source of this scanned image):<br clear="none">
> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.moe.gov.cn/ewebeditor/uploadfile/2015/03/02/20150302165814246.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
http://www.moe.gov.cn/ewebeditor/uploadfile/2015/03/02/20150302165814246.pdf</a><br clear="none">
> there is no clear distinction of the typeface for "a" & "g".<br clear="none">
> A distinction of "a" is mentioned in the </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">四、声調符号</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">, special "a" is used for
</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">軽声</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">,<br clear="none">
> maybe it would be the update introduced in 2012.<br clear="none">
> But yet I'm unsure about the background to distinguish "g".<br clear="none">
> Regards,<br clear="none">
> mpsuzuki<br clear="none">
> On 2024/02/29 22:28, </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42);">陈永聪</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);"> via mpeg-otspec wrote:<br clear="none">
> > Fuji-San,<br clear="none">
> > > Thank you for your comments. The most official materials for Hanyu Pinyin forms are
</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42);">汉语拼音方案</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">and
</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42);">现代汉语词典</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">.<br clear="none">
> > > Eiso<br clear="none">
> > ---- Replied Message ----<br clear="none">
> > From Takaaki Fuji </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">藤</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">
</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">貴亮</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);"><<a shape="rect" href="mailto:tfuji@morisawa.co.jp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">tfuji@morisawa.co.jp</a>><<a shape="rect" href="mailto:tfuji@morisawa.co.jp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mailto:tfuji@morisawa.co.jp</a>><br clear="none">
> > Date 02/29/2024 </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">下午</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);">6:45<br clear="none">
> > To </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42);">陈永聪</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);"> <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:eisoch@126.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">eisoch@126.com</a>><<a shape="rect" href="mailto:eisoch@126.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mailto:eisoch@126.com</a>><br clear="none">
> > Cc mpeg-otspec <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a>><<a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a>><br clear="none">
> > Subject Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Two GSUB Proposals for OFF: 'cabp' and 'hypy'<br clear="none">
> > Dear Eiso,<br clear="none">
> > > I'm just curious, but for ‘hypy’, is there any good source I can look at for the ‘official' glyph forms of Hanyu Pinyin?<br clear="none">
> > > If I understand the issue correctly, ‘hypy’ is not only about the Futura-like one-story a/g shown in Example, but also the tone marks are preferred to have a 'reverse-modulation’; while an acute is always stroked from top to bottom as a Latin accent,
as a Pinyin mark it goes upwards from left to right to illustrate the second/rising tone. I imagine this conflict/divergence has long been such an issue in a dual-script situation, so switching between the two via GSUB sounds like a great improvement to me!<br clear="none">
> > > Thank you,<br clear="none">
> > > Takaaki Fuji<br clear="none">
> > >> On Feb 26, 2024, at 9:38, </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42);">陈永聪</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(38,40,42);"> via mpeg-otspec <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
> >> >> This is my first proposal for OFF. Please see <a shape="rect" href="http://cloud.caaph.com:10121/f/fed7bd2e3d/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
http://cloud.caaph.com:10121/f/fed7bd2e3d/</a><br clear="none">
> >> I suggest adding two GSUB features. 'cabp' is used to support GB/Z 40637—2021, 'hypy' is used to support the special glyphs forms used for Hanyu Pinyin.<br clear="none">
> >> >> If you have any suggestions or feedbacks, please let me know.<br clear="none">
> >> >> Regards,<br clear="none">
> >> Eiso_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
> >> mpeg-otspec mailing list<br clear="none">
> >> <a shape="rect" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a><br clear="none">
> >> <a shape="rect" href="https://lists.aau.at/mailman/listinfo/mpeg-otspec" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
https://lists.aau.at/mailman/listinfo/mpeg-otspec</a><br clear="none">
> > _______________________________________________<br clear="none">
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