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<p>I thought by the context of what I was responding to that it
would be clear I was offering another alternative to "master",
which some people (regardless of etymology, see GitHub) may want
to change. Note that I don't have strong opinions on that either
way; I didn't bring it up.</p>
<p>As far as my use of that term in the document that started this
thread, I had already changed that before the last meeting, as I
noted on the list in a different message.<br>
</p>
<p>Skef<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/11/24 13:07, Peter Constable
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Skef:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">It’s not
clear to me in what context you’re suggesting new
terminology. You had used it in your doc on CFF2 stem hints
in a way that appeared to mean any runtime-selectable
variation of the font. The OT and OFF specs already use the
terminology “design-variation instance”, “design instance”,
“variation instance” or simply “instance” for that meaning.
The things listed in the ‘fvar’ table are already referred
to as “named instances”, both in the spec and in common
parlance. And, as I pointed out earlier, “master” is defined
in the spec as having to do with source data in a font
development workflow— I don’t think that’s inconsistent with
what Dave has said.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Font
face:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> A logical
collection of glyph data sharing specific design parameters,
along with associated metric data, and names or other
metadata.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Variation
instance:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> A font
face corresponding to a particular position within the
variation space of a variable font.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Named
instance:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> A
variation instance that is specifically defined and assigned
a name within the 'fvar' table.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Master:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> A set of source font data that
includes complete outline data for a particular font face,
used in a font-development workflow.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">(See <a
href="https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/typography/opentype/spec/otvaroverview#terminology"
moz-do-not-send="true">
Terminology</a>.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
mpeg-otspec <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec-bounces@lists.aau.at"><mpeg-otspec-bounces@lists.aau.at></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave Crossland via mpeg-otspec<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 10, 2024 10:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Skef Iterum <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:skef@skef.org"><skef@skef.org></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpeg-otspec <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at"><mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] "master"
terminology<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Personally I am all for changing
master/slave naming to primary/secondary, but master is
not only contrasted with slave. I have a master's degree.
My father was a ship's master. Chess players are
masterminds. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mastering is a process in music
production, and this is where the word comes to font
production from, in my opinion. I don't see this use in
opentype as similar at all to say database replication. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If we are going to change it, don't
think 2 words is going to stick. "Sources", perhaps. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dave<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 11:36<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM
Skef Iterum via mpeg-otspec <<a
href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p>Had a shower thought this evening: What about "design
instance"? And then calling what is the list in fvar,
when there is a need to differentiate, a "user
instance"? This would be, in effect, extending the
distinction between design coordinates and user
coordinates to instances.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>One thing I like about this is that it doesn't carry
the heavy weight connotation that "master" seems to, in
that it seems natural to talk about the "design
instance" of a whole font or of a single glyph, while
using "master" for the latter doesn't seem quite right.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>(A single word would be easier but those tend to be
taken one or twice over at this late date.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Skef <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2/5/24 13:32, Hin-Tak Leung
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">For some of its
current usage, the word "master" can be replaced
with "primary". The other usage, and in plurals,
"masters" (as in variable fonts) are really
corner states / extremas . There is probably a
better word to mean a "pure instance" of some
sort?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">"primary/primaries"
probably can work? "primary source data"?
"Source primary"?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div
id="m_711922894709741043ydp344c07a4yahoo_quoted_7998069860">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">On
Monday, 5 February 2024 at 21:04:50 GMT,
Thomas Phinney
<a href="mailto:tphinney@cal.berkeley.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><tphinney@cal.berkeley.edu></a>
wrote:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div
id="m_711922894709741043ydp344c07a4yiv6692309986">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#26282A">IIRC,
we had a (very lengthy!) discussion
of this same issue internally at
FontLab back when I was CEO.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#26282A">We
never came up with an alternate word
that seemed workable for the font
data concept. “Main” really does
seem
<i>singular</i> in a way that
“master” is not necessarily.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#26282A">If
somebody proposes a good alternative
word, I expect people would be happy
to entertain a change request—I just
couldn’t think of something.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
id="m_711922894709741043ydp344c07a4yiv6692309986yqt72332">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">On
Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 12:53 PM
Hin-Tak Leung via mpeg-otspec <<a
href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">That
reminds me - the
git/git[hub,lab,...] people
have been moving away from
"master" as the name of the
default branch, to "main",
because of the word's
colonial connotations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Maybe
the opentype spec should
avoid the word "master" for
that reason too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div
id="m_711922894709741043ydp344c07a4yiv6692309986m_-641728661922181094ydp987cb2bcyahoo_quoted_7521758938">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">On
Monday, 5 February 2024
at 20:44:15 GMT, Peter
Constable via
mpeg-otspec <<a
href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a>> wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Hi,
Skef<br>
<br>
The term "master"
should not be used in
the way you have in
this doc. The
variations overview
section uses the term,
defining it as "a set
of source font data...
used in a
font-development
workflow". It could be
used elsewhere in the
spec with that
meaning, but the
wording should make
clear that it refers
to source data. <br>
<br>
In your doc, it's not
clear whether you mean
"instance" or a
default value combined
with a (not
attenuated) delta. The
latter concept
necessarily has to
refer to some specific
value in the font,
which could be an
outline coordinate, a
metric value, or any
other single, variable
value. But when it
comes to data in the
font file there is
nothing that
corresponds to a
source master.<br>
<br>
<br>
A question about this:
I gather that this
would require changes
in CFF2 rasterizers?<br>
<br>
<br>
Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div
id="m_711922894709741043ydp344c07a4yiv6692309986m_-641728661922181094ydp987cb2bcyqtfd48815">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><br>
-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: mpeg-otspec
<<a
href="mailto:mpeg-otspec-bounces@lists.aau.at" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mpeg-otspec-bounces@lists.aau.at</a>>
On Behalf Of Skef
Iterum via
mpeg-otspec<br>
Sent: Monday,
February 5, 2024
3:23 AM<br>
To: <a
href="mailto:mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mpeg-otspec@lists.aau.at</a><br>
Subject: [EXTERNAL]
[MPEG-OTSPEC]
Relaxation of CFF2
hint requirements
(?) in variable
fonts<br>
<br>
A short proposal to
relax the
requirements on stem
hints in a CFF2
variable font should
be attached. These
changes (or
clarifications --
see below) are
comparable to
allowing overlap in
CFF2; what could
easily be normalized
away in a static
context winds up
being needed in a
variable context.<br>
<br>
Note that these
changes do not
affect the storage
format, and one
could argue that one
or even both is
compatible with the
current standard
(given that nothing
much is said on the
subject). Still,
they may raise
issues about
versioning. My sense
is that if a font
built according to
the clarifications
is rasterized on a
system assuming
total ordering of
stems and/or no
duplicate stems, the
result will be as if
some stems are
missing rather than
overt distortion of
a glyph. And the
need for such stems
is relative rare, so
only a few glyphs in
a typical font are
likely to be
affected.<br>
<br>
We can talk about
versioning questions
as part of the
discussion.<br>
<br>
Skef<br>
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