[MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification

Thu Aug 13 20:29:47 CEST 2020

One clarification: While working as editor for OT versions 1.8 through 1.8.3, there is one kind of change I made somewhat unilaterally that some might consider to be crossing a line from editorial to technical: changing the _names_ of structures or structure members. (This was to bring greater consistency in naming patterns.) 

I say "somewhat unilaterally": as a recall, I had gotten some input on naming conventions from several implementers in different companies at least in some specific cases and sometimes view a view to generalized principles; and IIRC, I provided delta docs with change highlighting to at least some reviewers outside MS, and certainly to Vlad (to help him synchronize in OFF, when appropriate).

Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at> On Behalf Of Peter Constable
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 8:43 AM
To: Simon Cozens <simon at simon-cozens.org>; Levantovsky, Vladimir <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>; mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at
Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification

I will add a bit on my perspective wrt the OT spec: AFAIK, MS has rarely if ever made any unilateral technical changes without consulting other platform vendors. The closest case I know of from the past 17 years was the MERG table; I wasn't involved when that was developed, so I don't know what consultation with other companies occurred, but MS generally had a practice of keeping Apple, their original TT partner, in the loop.

In the past, when comments on the OT spec were submitted to MS (via the GitHub issues tracker or other means), then unilateral changes would be made if they were purely editorial in nature,  were reporting a technical error, or pointed to a need for clarification on a technical issue. But certainly while I was editing the OT spec, requests for technical changes to formats or processing models wouldn't be made without consultation with other platform vendors.

Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at> On Behalf Of Simon Cozens
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 8:18 AM
To: Levantovsky, Vladimir <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>; mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at
Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification

Hi Vlad,

	Thank you so much for the explanation. That makes a lot of sense. It sounds like: this AHG has an open and formalized process for approving changes, as opposed to the somewhat opaque process that happens when a Github issue is submitted; changes are submitted to ISO through this group, so this is the right place for OFF proposals in the first instance; and MS picks up and integrates accepted proposals made on this list anyway (and probably should not be integrating proposals not discussed here).

	If that's true, then the Microsoft Github issues tracker seems somewhat redundant.

	In which case, please stand by for a large number of incoming proposals. ;-)

Simon

On 13/08/2020 16:08, Levantovsky, Vladimir wrote:
> Hi Simon,
> 
> For any updates to be included as part of the ISO amendment to OFF 
> standard, they need to be proposed and discussed on this list first 
> (even if the discussion is a simple nod of approval to confirm a broad 
> consensus on a proposal). From here, the proposed changes are 
> submitted to the ISO Working Group as AHG input with the 
> recommendation to initiate an amendment process (yes, there is a 
> process we need to follow). There has always been a strong desire [and 
> efforts put in place by all interested parties] to make sure that the 
> changes to ISO OFF document and the OpenType specification published 
> on Microsoft website are always synchronized, but they are in effect 
> two separate publications. There have been times when changes 
> discussed and agreed upon on this list would be made in the OT spec 
> before the amendment process is officially completed (it takes time to 
> ballot and approve new documents via ISO channels), and there were 
> times when changes that were made as ISO amendment would be finalized 
> in OFF and then picked up for inclusion in OT spec.
> 
> In general, most updates shared and discussed on this list [that we 
> end up developing a consensus for] end up being picked up for 
> inclusion in both OFF and OT specs, and the membership here includes 
> all relevant and interested parties so that no update proposal would 
> ever go unnoticed (as opposed to private GitHub submissions that may 
> not be visible to many on this list). Changes in ISO OFF document are 
> never automatic, and when changes are proposed in the OT spec by MS 
> folks they would also be introduced and discussed on the AHG list.
> 
> My recommendation would be to start the discussions here and proceed 
> as appropriate based on the outcome.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Vlad
> 
> *From:*mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at> *On Behalf Of 
> *Simon Cozens
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 13, 2020 7:01 AM
> *To:* mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at
> *Subject:* [MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I've just proposed an initial tranche of 32 amendments to the OpenType 
> Specification through Microsoft's github repository, but I am a little 
> unclear on the update process and want to seek clarification before 
> suggesting any more improvements.
> 
> Are updates made by Microsoft automatically adopted by ISO OFF when a 
> new MSOT specification is released? If so, then OFF is entirely 
> controlled by MS, which would be an interesting and unusual position 
> for an ISO standard. If not, then how does ISO avoid divergence? What 
> happens if this community disagrees with a change that MS has made?
> Does the synchronization work the other way around - does MS 
> automatically pick up standard changes that this ad hoc group makes?
> 
> Currently we have two sources of the same information, both claiming 
> to be authoritative. Anyone who has worked with databases knows the 
> dangers of this situation.
> 
> So where is the best place to submit improvements to each standard?
> Should I submit identical proposals for OFF improvement here here too?
> 
> Simon
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