[MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification

[Peter Constable]

> Where are the documents referenced in (1)?

Welcome to how ISO operates. The JTC1/SC29/WG11 documents can all be found at

https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink?func=ll&objid=8916126&objaction=ndocslist

And they’re all under lock and key, accessible only if your country’s standards body has nominated you as an expert to participate in WG11.


Peter

From: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at> On Behalf Of Dave Crossland
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 10:12 PM
To: Levantovsky, Vladimir <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>
Cc: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>
Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification

Thank you Vlad!!

You'll have to forgive me for sounding rather partisan, but emailing around docx files seems to me rather inefficient :)

Nevertheless, I took a look and from the attached:

----- 8 < -----

Mandates

1. To study the technical issues outlined in the liaison statements from SC34 (m52545) and from CSS WG (m52854)

2. Identify possible approaches to solving confirmed technical issues, and communicate with the members of CSS WG to discuss and resolve any identified ambiguities that need clarifications, or requirements for new features and technology to support new functionality.

3. Develop and propose to WG11 the items that would become the basis for a new work item, and suggest a way forward.

----- 8 < -----

Where are the documents referenced in (1)?

(2) seems to be a follow on from (1)

But (3) seems perfect as that's the majority of the recent conversation on this list :)

My suggestion about a github repo seems to fall within (3), too? :)

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:35 PM Levantovsky, Vladimir <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com<mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>> wrote:
Here is the one from previous meeting in April 2020: https://mpeg.chiariglione.org/sites/default/files/files/meetings/docs/w19174%20-%20AHGs.docx<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmpeg.chiariglione.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Ffiles%2Fmeetings%2Fdocs%2Fw19174%2520-%2520AHGs.docx&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151184826&sdata=ZdWQqSUL4pn4%2Bi9S%2BeXd0hOonqokTjC%2BekQBuylboi8%3D&reserved=0>
I will need to do some digging to find a public link to the most recent one from July (the document is attached).

Cheers,
Vlad


From: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at>> On Behalf Of Dave Crossland
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 8:44 PM
To: Levantovsky, Vladimir <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com<mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>>
Cc: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>>
Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification


On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 8:28 PM Levantovsky, Vladimir <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com<mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>> wrote:
With my AHG chair hat on, in addition to what I mentioned earlier [about the importance of having an open forum that offers unrestricted access to any willing participant], what I didn’t mention is that establishing that forum isn’t strictly up to us – it is up to the ISO WG to establish the AHG and choose the provider who will be hosting that group’s email list. The list of established AHGs with the information about their approved mandates, email lists, and how to join them is published after every Working Group meeting – this is how the assurances are made that it is truly open for anyone interested to join.
Got it. Who is on the ISO WG for OFF, and where is the most recent publication as you described? :)




Of the several places where discussions have arisen in the last few years, most of them are such Github repos:

(1) meta discussions about how to make font format spec updates - here, on Twitter.com, and TypeDrawers.com.

(2) editorial change ideas happening here and in
 https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/typography-issues/issues<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FalQoCR60nPhvY50qi9MNNh&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151194822&sdata=aS1kGWUn7cxtZwDgLx0LJtk44Gi0eDu4sjU945fWvJk%3D&reserved=0> and
https://www.commontype.org<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FE_zTCVOkr7TxBgkoUz-aBw&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151194822&sdata=nwOGx8o5hCMQcxdv4uSUrVLFmLPQB%2B1ZN3aqtvU6TcE%3D&reserved=0> .

(3) technical change ideas happening here and in
https://github.com/opentype<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FoyuGCW6lvQh53DXmCKMD29&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151204819&sdata=EuQyFwG%2BOcXDS787p8gbDaAIE4t4Shqbqx21MVlReCM%3D&reserved=0> ,
https://github.com/commontype-standard<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FOXV2CYEnxytLYAp2iMtsqI&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151204819&sdata=mlw4cR0PODGtmXdpaBpiZ1tpz%2FXmDwxgP5cV1MNCD2Y%3D&reserved=0> ,
https://github.com/be5invis/OTVAR-ZVAR-Table<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FWwUkCZ6oyzh5vQ89CPkKF6&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151204819&sdata=w09D6cqhZ4gvWzyu3pUeHHzfTXgH7ESpl4c6T4EfMj0%3D&reserved=0> ,
https://github.com/microsoft/OpenTypeDesignVariationAxisTags<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FoMU0C1wnqGSMgqBNiyu49h&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151214812&sdata=ipT%2Fmbn7lTvtqWyDPa3MQAH3sG1DmTSrLCE741H%2F5NA%3D&reserved=0> ,
https://github.com/googlefonts/colr-gradients-spec<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2Fk1PmC2kor7tpr8Zzi0GkNk&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151214812&sdata=6f3yJSlg6TP9fyzEtkbEsVJNyTIoRUM0BLNavYX6RS0%3D&reserved=0> and
https://github.com/microsoft/OpenType-XVAR-proposal<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FLlKxC31pvysp329ziOODCG&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151224802&sdata=M5EKTjixsOSL%2Fw5bmOI1xsUdVG40SR71KDOp1U%2B9sCY%3D&reserved=0> .

(4) efforts to consolidate the 'script development specs' such as
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/typography/script-development/bengali<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FrPGCC4xqwzFBPl9KtXU0Qe&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151224802&sdata=vYk3Wl3ToCdyrgPY5wVnSdPY95CE04ILo5496zSRJJc%3D&reserved=0> from MS,
https://github.com/n8willis/opentype-shaping-documents/<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FwFnNC68vyBsrky0YclRcOg%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151224802&sdata=HSk5iIQSGZQvpdfvFy6K%2FzwRkZ8ra4Zbq48O22qcHc4%3D&reserved=0> from Nathan Willis,
https://github.com/typotheque/text-shaping<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FWwihC73wzpCAMZV1HEDQg3&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151234799&sdata=QR2LJHe6VLvLOayJC%2F3O15Ige3V96YvIPcUIQcAw0mg%3D&reserved=0> from Liang Hai, and related tools like
https://bitbucket.org/LindenbergSW/fontdoctools/src/master/R%C3%B6ntgen.md<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2Facq6C9ryBDhkn2NEtKUsyH&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151234799&sdata=18FcMIpp%2Bgkn6eVkxrpyYLHeAURi7YIqL1OrhiVcMwE%3D&reserved=0> from Norbert Lindenberg.

So, to the subject line, if any of these efforts want to land changes in the OFF spec, mailing suggestions to this list and expecting Vlad to copy and paste text from email app to document editor app seems a bit... cruel :) Clearly this is a solved problem :)

I expect that many of those Github repos would close, if there was a true central repo that their energy could be productively funnelled into.

Thank you Dave, this is a very impressive and comprehensive list of resources, and very useful to have handy for future references.

I also forgot to mention the other email lists: there's the Yahoo one that was migrated successfully to the archives here, the indx.co.uk<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2F-XyhC0Rmp0uGvmgwiREBj4&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151244792&sdata=jCuOJqnPsswmq5x8%2FgOzrfdtvEq%2FNtEjuCU%2BSdmvjVo%3D&reserved=0> one, and at least 2 on unicode.org<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FSJz3CgJGKnTA6GwZHYeldl&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151244792&sdata=tJUNSJl2UUFJkHYT5DrnyNdVxRs0roE%2BPzfOYNuH6Qc%3D&reserved=0>, for layout and for variations.

When it comes to editorial efforts, while certain things may definitely become easier to handle, I don’t expect that everything can be automated. ISO Directives impose certain specific guidelines on project editors on how ISO documents need to be written / structured, they have their own lingo of sorts (ISO English if you will) – the latest amendment available for download from publicly available standards is a good example, and had to be rewritten using recently updated guidelines (which means that “cruel work of copying / pasting” had to be repeated to a degree, since my early draft didn’t comply with updated requirements. J
Haha :)

Where can we read about the guidelines for "ISO English"?

And, does that mean there is a persistent delta between the MS Typography site OT spec and the OFF spec text?

Given 'here' is somewhat random Austrian university mailman, can the AHG have such a Github repo?

A caveat – “here” being “Austrian university mailman” isn’t random – it is what MPEG approved to be used as the AHG email list.

Understood, and there are many other MPEG lists here.

What I meant by "random" is in a sense to echo the point I made that the list is obscure: I doubt anyone will guess "oh yes, to discuss this font format, I should join an Austrian University mailing list" :)

Indeed, outside the rather labyrinthian ISO website itself, does anyone know of any prominent notices about the existence of this mailing list on any website? I don't recall ever seeing any...

After you and I chatted about using GitHub, I did send the question to ISO folks to help me figure out whether it would be possible to move the maintenance work of the OFF standard to GitHub, but have not heard back yet. I will ping them again to see if we can get it going, hopefully soon.
🙏
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