[MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification

Fri Aug 14 12:25:04 CEST 2020

Hi

I have been reading this thread with interest.

I am in England, retired, "not representing an organization", and just 
interested on a sort of hobbyist basis. I do make fonts using the 
FontCreator program and use those fonts in my own publications, also 
publishing many of them, but I do not claim to be expert in either the 
specification or font design.

Some of my ideas have been banned from being discussed on another 
mailing list.

Yet I am welcomed here, which is validation of the openness of the 
process here.

Is "ISO English in fact en-gb-oed English, namely as in the Oxford 
English Dictionary?

It is not only here that .doc and .docx files can be an issue. My local 
government council send them out.

I find PDF (Portable Document Format) format files much better.

Sometimes I do not understand the meanings of abbreviations and 
acronyms, it is helpful if they are explained when first used.

Documents under lock and key is a problem for some of us.

My country supports ISO, we pay taxes, what's the issue?

The de facto de jure matter is important.

A similar issue arises over The Unicode Specification and ISO/IEC 10646.

I can read The Unicode Specification and its code charts free online.

Yet the de jure version is important to exist so that things are not 
proprietary over intellectual property rights.

So I appreciate and value the openness of this group and long may it 
continue.

Best regards
,
William Overington

Friday 14 August 2020

.

.

------ Original Message ------
From: "Peter Constable" <pgcon6 at msn.com>
To: "Dave Crossland" <dcrossland at google.com>; "Levantovsky, Vladimir" 
<Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>
Cc: "mpeg-otspec" <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>
Sent: Friday, 2020 Aug 14 At 06:39
Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification

> Where are the documents referenced in (1)?

Welcome to how ISO operates. The JTC1/SC29/WG11 documents can all be 
found at

https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink?func=ll&objid=8916126&objaction=ndocslist 
<https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink?func=ll&objid=8916126&objaction=ndocslist>

And they’re all under lock and key, accessible only if your country’s 
standards body has nominated you as an expert to participate in WG11.

Peter

From: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at>  On Behalf Of Dave 
Crossland
  Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 10:12 PM
  To: Levantovsky, Vladimir <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>
  Cc: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>
  Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification

Thank you Vlad!!

You'll have to forgive me for sounding rather partisan, but emailing 
around docx files seems to me rather inefficient :)

Nevertheless, I took a look and from the attached:

----- 8 < -----

Mandates

1. To study the technical issues outlined in the liaison statements from 
SC34 (m52545) and from CSS WG (m52854)

2. Identify possible approaches to solving confirmed technical issues, 
and communicate with the members of CSS WG to discuss and resolve any 
identified ambiguities that need clarifications, or requirements for new 
features and technology  to support new functionality.

3. Develop and propose to WG11 the items that would become the basis for 
a new work item, and suggest a way forward.

  ----- 8 < -----

Where are the documents referenced in (1)?

(2) seems to be a follow on from (1)

But (3) seems perfect as that's the majority of the recent conversation 
on this list :)

My suggestion about a github repo seems to fall within (3), too? :)

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:35 PM Levantovsky, Vladimir 
<Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com 
<mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com> > wrote:

Here is the one from previous meeting in April 2020: 
https://mpeg.chiariglione.org/sites/default/files/files/meetings/docs/w19174%20-%20AHGs.docx 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmpeg.chiariglione.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Ffiles%2Fmeetings%2Fdocs%2Fw19174%2520-%2520AHGs.docx&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151184826&sdata=ZdWQqSUL4pn4%2Bi9S%2BeXd0hOonqokTjC%2BekQBuylboi8%3D&reserved=0>
I will need to do some digging to find a public link to the most recent 
one from July (the document is attached).

Cheers,
Vlad

From: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at 
<mailto:mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at> > On Behalf Of Dave Crossland
  Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 8:44 PM
  To: Levantovsky, Vladimir <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com 
<mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com> >
  Cc: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at 
<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at> >
  Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 8:28 PM Levantovsky, Vladimir 
<Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com 
<mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com> > wrote:

With my AHG chair hat on, in addition to what I mentioned earlier [about 
the importance of having an open forum that offers unrestricted access 
to any  willing participant], what I didn’t mention is that establishing 
that forum isn’t strictly up to us – it is up to the ISO WG to establish 
the AHG and choose the provider who will be hosting that group’s email 
list. The list of established AHGs with the information  about their 
approved mandates, email lists, and how to join them is published after 
every Working Group meeting – this is how the assurances are made that 
it is truly open for anyone interested to join.

Got it. Who is on the ISO WG for OFF, and where is the most recent 
publication as you described? :)

  Of the several places where discussions have arisen in the last few 
years, most of them are such Github repos:

  (1) meta discussions about how to make font format spec updates - 
here, on Twitter.com, and TypeDrawers.com.

  (2) editorial change ideas happening here and in

   https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/typography-issues/issues 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FalQoCR60nPhvY50qi9MNNh&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151194822&sdata=aS1kGWUn7cxtZwDgLx0LJtk44Gi0eDu4sjU945fWvJk%3D&reserved=0> 
and

  https://www.commontype.org 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FE_zTCVOkr7TxBgkoUz-aBw&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151194822&sdata=nwOGx8o5hCMQcxdv4uSUrVLFmLPQB%2B1ZN3aqtvU6TcE%3D&reserved=0> 
.

  (3) technical change ideas happening here and in

  https://github.com/opentype 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FoyuGCW6lvQh53DXmCKMD29&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151204819&sdata=EuQyFwG%2BOcXDS787p8gbDaAIE4t4Shqbqx21MVlReCM%3D&reserved=0> 
,

  https://github.com/commontype-standard 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FOXV2CYEnxytLYAp2iMtsqI&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151204819&sdata=mlw4cR0PODGtmXdpaBpiZ1tpz%2FXmDwxgP5cV1MNCD2Y%3D&reserved=0> 
,

  https://github.com/be5invis/OTVAR-ZVAR-Table 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FWwUkCZ6oyzh5vQ89CPkKF6&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151204819&sdata=w09D6cqhZ4gvWzyu3pUeHHzfTXgH7ESpl4c6T4EfMj0%3D&reserved=0> 
,

  https://github.com/microsoft/OpenTypeDesignVariationAxisTags 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FoMU0C1wnqGSMgqBNiyu49h&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151214812&sdata=ipT%2Fmbn7lTvtqWyDPa3MQAH3sG1DmTSrLCE741H%2F5NA%3D&reserved=0> 
,

  https://github.com/googlefonts/colr-gradients-spec 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2Fk1PmC2kor7tpr8Zzi0GkNk&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151214812&sdata=6f3yJSlg6TP9fyzEtkbEsVJNyTIoRUM0BLNavYX6RS0%3D&reserved=0> 
and

  https://github.com/microsoft/OpenType-XVAR-proposal 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FLlKxC31pvysp329ziOODCG&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151224802&sdata=M5EKTjixsOSL%2Fw5bmOI1xsUdVG40SR71KDOp1U%2B9sCY%3D&reserved=0> 
.

  (4) efforts to consolidate the 'script development specs' such as

  https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/typography/script-development/bengali 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FrPGCC4xqwzFBPl9KtXU0Qe&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151224802&sdata=vYk3Wl3ToCdyrgPY5wVnSdPY95CE04ILo5496zSRJJc%3D&reserved=0> 
from MS,

  https://github.com/n8willis/opentype-shaping-documents/ 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FwFnNC68vyBsrky0YclRcOg%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151224802&sdata=HSk5iIQSGZQvpdfvFy6K%2FzwRkZ8ra4Zbq48O22qcHc4%3D&reserved=0> 
from Nathan Willis,

  https://github.com/typotheque/text-shaping 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FWwihC73wzpCAMZV1HEDQg3&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151234799&sdata=QR2LJHe6VLvLOayJC%2F3O15Ige3V96YvIPcUIQcAw0mg%3D&reserved=0> 
from Liang Hai, and related tools like

https://bitbucket.org/LindenbergSW/fontdoctools/src/master/R%C3%B6ntgen.md 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2Facq6C9ryBDhkn2NEtKUsyH&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151234799&sdata=18FcMIpp%2Bgkn6eVkxrpyYLHeAURi7YIqL1OrhiVcMwE%3D&reserved=0> 
from Norbert Lindenberg.

  So, to the subject line, if any of these efforts want to land changes 
in the OFF spec, mailing suggestions to this list and expecting Vlad to 
copy and paste text from email app to document editor app seems a bit... 
cruel :) Clearly this is a solved problem  :)

  I expect that many of those Github repos would close, if there was a 
true central repo that their energy could be productively funnelled 
into.

Thank you Dave, this is a very impressive and comprehensive list of 
resources, and very useful to have handy for future references.

I also forgot to mention the other email lists: there's the Yahoo one 
that was migrated successfully to the archives here, the  indx.co.uk 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2F-XyhC0Rmp0uGvmgwiREBj4&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151244792&sdata=jCuOJqnPsswmq5x8%2FgOzrfdtvEq%2FNtEjuCU%2BSdmvjVo%3D&reserved=0> 
one, and at least 2 on  unicode.org 
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FSJz3CgJGKnTA6GwZHYeldl&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cbed1549562164604fb9908d840108ec9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637329787151244792&sdata=tJUNSJl2UUFJkHYT5DrnyNdVxRs0roE%2BPzfOYNuH6Qc%3D&reserved=0> 
, for layout and for variations.

When it comes to editorial efforts, while certain things may definitely 
become easier to handle, I don’t expect that everything can be 
automated. ISO  Directives impose certain specific guidelines on project 
editors on how ISO documents need to be written / structured, they have 
their own lingo of sorts (ISO English if you will) – the latest 
amendment available for download from publicly available standards  is a 
good example, and had to be rewritten using recently updated guidelines 
(which means that “cruel work of copying / pasting” had to be repeated 
to a degree, since my early draft didn’t comply with updated 
requirements. J

Haha :)

Where can we read about the guidelines for "ISO English"?

And, does that mean there is a persistent delta between the MS 
Typography site OT spec and the OFF spec text?

  Given 'here' is somewhat random Austrian university mailman, can the 
AHG have such a Github repo?

A caveat – “here” being “Austrian university mailman” isn’t random – it 
is what MPEG approved to be used as the AHG email list.

Understood, and there are many other MPEG lists here.

What I meant by "random" is in a sense to echo the point I made that the 
list is obscure: I doubt anyone will guess "oh yes, to discuss this font 
format, I should join an Austrian  University mailing list" :)

Indeed, outside the rather labyrinthian ISO website itself, does anyone 
know of any prominent notices about the existence of this mailing list 
on any website? I don't recall ever  seeing any...

After you and I chatted about using GitHub, I did send the question to 
ISO folks to help me figure out whether it would be possible to move the 
maintenance  work of the OFF standard to GitHub, but have not heard back 
yet. I will ping them again to see if we can get it going, hopefully 
soon.

🙏

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