[MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification

Wed Aug 19 20:22:10 CEST 2020

My remarks were focused on what things look like if we try to move in the direction of more formal ISO processes, not the way we have done things via the AHG.

I have pointed out in the past and again this morning in another thread that a weakness in the current AHG process is that it’s possible for things to go into OFF without really having had a lot of review from implementers. Not that there hasn’t been reasonable opportunity for review, but more that the engagement is passive: a proposal can be made and incorporated unless objections are raised, with silence treated as implicit consent. But I don’t think it can really be considered consent if a proposal wasn’t actually reviewed: silence gives no indication up, down or sideways. I’d prefer to see more thumbs up on anything before adoption.

Peter

From: Levantovsky, Vladimir <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 10:58 AM
To: Peter Constable <pgcon6 at msn.com>; David Singer <singer at apple.com>
Cc: Dave Crossland <dcrossland at google.com>; mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>
Subject: RE: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification

No disagreement with what Peter and David said … but this AHG’s track record indicates that things can be done [and done right!] when we put our minds to it. National Body / WG participants may not be experts in all of the technical fields, but they are reasonable people and can be convinced to extend their support to something that needs to be done, especially when experts in this particular group reach a consensus on it and make it a formal proposal / input.

Same is happening on the international level, lack of support for font format activities has never been an issue.

Thanks,
Vlad

From: Peter Constable <pgcon6 at msn.com<mailto:pgcon6 at msn.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 1:00 PM
To: David Singer <singer at apple.com<mailto:singer at apple.com>>
Cc: Levantovsky, Vladimir <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com<mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>>; Dave Crossland <dcrossland at google.com<mailto:dcrossland at google.com>>; mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>>
Subject: RE: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification

Sure, when an ISO committee creates a working group for a particular task, such as preparing drafts of standard, then each participating country can nominate experts to participate in the working group. And the working group — at least, as the ISO Procedures specify — work as individuals, not as national bodies. So, for instance, there is not ever supposed to be national-body voting within a working group. (In practice, though, some working groups have functioned as though they are committees with national-body voting members.)

But working groups don't make any formal decisions. That all happens in committee level voting and commenting done by national bodies.

Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: David Singer <singer at apple.com<mailto:singer at apple.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:42 AM
To: Peter Constable <pgcon6 at msn.com<mailto:pgcon6 at msn.com>>
Cc: Levantovsky, Vladimir <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com<mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>>; Dave Crossland <dcrossland at google.com<mailto:dcrossland at google.com>>; mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>>
Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification

> On Aug 19, 2020, at 9:31 , Peter Constable <pgcon6 at msn.com<mailto:pgcon6 at msn.com>> wrote:
>
> Another important thing to point out about ISO process: Suppose I (or my private company) were to join the designated US standards body (INCITS, in this case), or the equivalent Japan/Brazil/Germany/etc. standards body, that does not give me (or my company) a direct voice in ISO. Rather, it gives me a voice within my national standards body.
>
> Within that country’s standards body, I need to work with the other members of the national body to formulate a national position on proposals (proposed new standards/TRs, or balloting on drafts). There’s no guarantee that my opinion on something will reach the international stage; I need to first make the case within my national standards body that what I say has technical and business merits. Only then does it become part of that country’s national position as it engages with other countries that participate within the given ISO committee. And that same thing plays out in every other country.

well, yes and no. There is a fair amount of work that is based on the input of experts, directly (contributions to the work). It’s only formal ballot responses (yes/no and comments) that are national delegation based.

>
>
> Peter
>
> From: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at>> On Behalf Of Levantovsky, Vladimir
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:16 AM
> To: Dave Crossland <dcrossland at google.com<mailto:dcrossland at google.com>>; mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>>
> Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification
>
> I am sure INCITS has some rules/policies in place to accommodate non-corporate entities and individual members, I just don’t know what they are. Best would be to contact their staff contact Barbara Bennett directly or via website (https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.incits.org%2Fcommittees%2Fl3&data=02%7C01%7C%7C442ed6fabace4ed95f7408d8445ed9f4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637334521455330382&sdata=oiYhguwXDGtvjLHYDI41EJK8zr2o2K8wn7V7okr6A5w%3D&reserved=0<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotect-us.mimecast.com%2Fs%2FxieZCZ6oyzh5pGWQhKmiwK&data=02%7C01%7C%7C586b9f150c504182041e08d844697401%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637334566985870279&sdata=LEA%2BOyqp8sc41yEaqVglBNcZEz7y%2FWAai2%2F3x9dQUR4%3D&reserved=0>), she is very involved in all L3 committee activities.
> The same is likely the case for other National Bodies, but each one of them have their own membership rules.
>
> Vlad
>
>
> From: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at>> On Behalf Of Dave Crossland
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 11:26 AM
> To: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>>
> Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Updates to specification
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 11:55 AM Levantovsky, Vladimir <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com<mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>> wrote:
> all that is needed is for your company to become an INCITS member
>
> What about people who don't have an employer, are they de facto excluded?
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David Singer
Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc.
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