[MPEG-OTSPEC] Agendas and minutes of the Font AHG

Thu Oct 1 05:10:21 CEST 2020

On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 10:29 PM Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

As I've noted and others have noted on this list as well, the bulk of the technical discussions of the AHG happen in private Unicode mailing lists and closed meetings.

Please do not conflate the private / closed meetings and technical discussion you may have had in various private Unicode lists (outside of this AHG) with the AHG itself. Even if these private meetings or email discussions had other members of the AHG present as participants, they were not part of the work of this group!
Having private discussions with the goal of developing new technical solutions is perfectly fine, but … unless the results of those private discussions were presented to this AHG as proposals, the topics discussed [and the decisions made] had nothing to do with the AHG work.

The full discussion nor decision-making process nor the rejected proposals are visible AT ALL to any ISO entity or voting member. Not WG3. Not SC29. Not JTC1.

If no proposal was ever brought up to the attention of this group, or to the WG directly – the decisions made as part of any private discussion you may have had with others outside of this AHG remained completely invisible and had no relevance to the AHG itself. If, however, a proposal for a new technical solution was presented to this AHG and/or to the WG directly – the specific details of how that particular proposal was developed is not the AHG business – we have only considered new proposals as presented, based on merit.

And not to India. Not to Pakistan. Not to China, Japan, or Korea. Or Canada. Or any other country for that matter.

In other words, the outcome of your private discussions remained private and has not been shared with anyone! It has not been visible to this group, nor to ISO WG, not to SC29, not to JTC1 [according to your own admission] – how is it this AHG’s fault?

Vladimir

behdad

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020, 6:50 PM MURATA Makoto <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp<mailto:eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>> wrote:
Vlad,

> What “important documents”? The only documents we worked on were either output WG documents made available for public review, or proposals by AHG members that were submitted as WG input contributions, or technical issues that we discussed before offering them as ballot comments. In ALL of those cases, the documents were submitted to the WG _as input_!

You think that all important documents are made
available to WG11 probably as numbered documents.
I understand.  Will check.

Regards,
Makoto

>
> Regards,
> Makoto
>
>
>
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Young
> >
> >
> > ------ Original Message ------
> > From: "MURATA Makoto" <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp<mailto:eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>>
> > To: "Youngkwon Lim" <yklwhite at gmail.com<mailto:yklwhite at gmail.com>>
> > Cc: "Levantovsky, Vladimir" <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com<mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>>; "mpeg-otspec" <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>>
> > Sent: 09/30/20 18:42:01
> > Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Agendas and minutes of the Font AHG
> >
> > Youngkwon,
> >
> > I am well aware the ISO code of conduct. It
> > is here. https://www.iso.org/files/live/sites/isoorg/files/store/en/PUB100397.pdf<https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/zegPC1wnqGSpngq8HLj6JS>
> >
> > My first concern is about the absence of SC29
> > numbered documents about important discussion
> > topics relevant to OFF. This is a fact. I am going
> > to study WG11 numbered documents as well.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Makoto
> >
> >
> > 2020年10月1日(木) 8:08 Youngkwon Lim <yklwhite at gmail.com<mailto:yklwhite at gmail.com>>:
> >>
> >> Dear MURATA-san,
> >>
> >> I would like to remind you the ISO code of conduct when you participate this AHG.
> >>
> >> In addition, more importantly, I have serious concern about your first concern as it is not based on any facts and not even relevant to the AHG discussion. It is a matter for SC 29.
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >> Young
> >>
> >>
> >> ------ Original Message ------
> >> From: "MURATA Makoto" <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp<mailto:eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>>
> >> To: "Levantovsky, Vladimir" <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com<mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>>
> >> Cc: "mpeg-otspec" <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>>
> >> Sent: 09/30/20 17:42:57
> >> Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Agendas and minutes of the Font AHG
> >>
> >> I have two concerns.
> >>
> >> First, do P-members of SC29 not belonging to the
> >> Font AHG have access to important information?
> >> If nothing except balloted texts is available, national
> >> bodies are not well informed. For example,
> >> was India well informed when some decisions
> >> in the Font AHG are very relevant to them?
> >>
> >> Second, how consensus has been declared in
> >> the Font AHG?
> >>
> >> > [Note: Consensus is defined as general agreement, characterised by
> >> > the absence of sustained opposition to substantial issues by any
> >> > important part of the concerned interests and by a process that
> >> > involves seeking to take into account the views of all parties
> >> > concerned and to reconcile any conflicting arguments. Consensus need
> >> > not imply unanimity. (ISO/IEC Guide 2:1996)]
> >>
> >> If few agendas and minutes are available and
> >> everything is recorded as part of AHG reports,
> >> (and when some members of the AHG
> >> still oppose to "consensus"), I think that it
> >> is hard to defend consensus in the past.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Makoto
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 2020年10月1日(木) 4:24 Levantovsky, Vladimir <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com<mailto:Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>>:
> >>>
> >>> AHG on Font Format conducts its business online via email list and shared documents (either proposals shared by their authors or WG public output documents shared with AHG members for review. The AHG reports are provided for each WG meeting and summarize AHG activities.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The AHG typically does not conduct any work via meetings (unless this is specifically indicated as part of the mandate), so the fact that you couldn’t find any “minutes” or “resolutions” isn’t a surprise – by the very nature of our work we submit recommendations to the WG (as part of the AHG report), but we do not make resolutions (like WGs do).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hope this helps,
> >>>
> >>> Vladimir
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at>> On Behalf Of MURATA Makoto
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 11:59 PM
> >>> To: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>>
> >>> Subject: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Agendas and minutes of the Font AHG
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Folks,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I am investigating the email archive available
> >>>
> >>> at https://lists.aau.at/pipermail/mpeg-otspec/<https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/qOi0C2kor7tkKr87u1EIwh/>.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I searched for "agenda", "minutes", and "report".
> >>>
> >>> They appear in the email archive several times. A
> >>>
> >>> few of them are available as attachments.
> >>>
> >>> But the others are no longer available at the
> >>>
> >>> Yahoo ML archive.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> There are some AHG reports (as part of emails),
> >>>
> >>> but they do not look like minutes or resolutions
> >>>
> >>> of the AHG. As the convenor of SC34/WG4,
> >>>
> >>> I write reports but they are not considered as
> >>>
> >>> authoritative documents.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The document archive of WG11 at https://isotc.iso.org<https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/lX8uC31pvysm732Zc23sfq>
> >>>
> >>> is also gone.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I will contact the SC29 secretariat and try to find
> >>>
> >>> more.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Makoto
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 2020年9月27日(日) 17:44 MURATA Makoto <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp<mailto:eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>>:
> >>>
> >>> Folks,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The document repository of SC29 has records of ballots
> >>>
> >>> in the past. I downloaded the summaries of 16 ballots
> >>>
> >>> related to OFF and had a quick look at them.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> All countries except US have always said
> >>>
> >>> YES without comments. There are a few
> >>>
> >>> exceptions, but they are one-paragraph
> >>>
> >>> editorial comments attached to Yes.
> >>>
> >>> It is only US that has made non-trivial comments.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Although there appear to be different opinions around
> >>>
> >>> color fonts, I find no discussion documents in the SC29
> >>>
> >>> document repository about them. I might be
> >>>
> >>> missing something since the document archive of
> >>>
> >>> WG11 is not available now. I will contact the SC29
> >>>
> >>> committee officer about this.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Makoto
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Makoto
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> mpeg-otspec mailing list
> >>> mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>
> >>> https://lists.aau.at/mailman/listinfo/mpeg-otspec<https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/h2EuC4xqwzFJYPlrSWbzqQ>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Regards,
> >> Makoto
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> mpeg-otspec mailing list
> >> mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>
> >> https://lists.aau.at/mailman/listinfo/mpeg-otspec<https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/h2EuC4xqwzFJYPlrSWbzqQ>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Makoto
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mpeg-otspec mailing list
> > mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at<mailto:mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>
> > https://lists.aau.at/mailman/listinfo/mpeg-otspec<https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/h2EuC4xqwzFJYPlrSWbzqQ>
>
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Makoto
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--
Regards,
Makoto
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