[MPEG-OTSPEC] Agendas and minutes of the Font AHG

[Youngkwon Lim]

Dear Behdad,

As an experts from Korea participating WG 3, I can confirmed that I have 
been fully informed about what has been discussed and decided by this 
AHG for many years so far.

Sincerely,
Young


------ Original Message ------
From: "Behdad Esfahbod" <behdad at behdad.org>
To: "MURATA Makoto" <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>
Cc: "mpeg-otspec" <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>
Sent: 09/30/20 21:29:02
Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Agendas and minutes of the Font AHG

>As I've noted and others have noted on this list as well, the bulk of 
>the technical discussions of the AHG happen in private Unicode mailing 
>lists and closed meetings.
>
>The full discussion nor decision-making process nor the rejected 
>proposals are visible AT ALL to any ISO entity or voting member. Not 
>WG3. Not SC29. Not JTC1.
>
>And not to India. Not to Pakistan. Not to China, Japan, or Korea. Or 
>Canada. Or any other country for that matter.
>
>behdad
>
>On Wed, Sep 30, 2020, 6:50 PM MURATA Makoto <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp> 
>wrote:
>>Vlad,
>>
>> > What “important documents”? The only documents we worked on were 
>>either output WG documents made available for public review, or 
>>proposals by AHG members that were submitted as WG input 
>>contributions, or technical issues that we discussed before offering 
>>them as ballot comments. In ALL of those cases, the documents were 
>>submitted to the WG _as input_!
>>
>>You think that all important documents are made
>>available to WG11 probably as numbered documents.
>>I understand.  Will check.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Makoto
>>
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Makoto
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Sincerely,
>> > > Young
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ------ Original Message ------
>> > > From: "MURATA Makoto" <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>
>> > > To: "Youngkwon Lim" <yklwhite at gmail.com>
>> > > Cc: "Levantovsky, Vladimir" <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>; 
>>"mpeg-otspec" <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>
>> > > Sent: 09/30/20 18:42:01
>> > > Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Agendas and minutes of the Font AHG
>> > >
>> > > Youngkwon,
>> > >
>> > > I am well aware the ISO code of conduct. It
>> > > is here. 
>>https://www.iso.org/files/live/sites/isoorg/files/store/en/PUB100397.pdf
>> > >
>> > > My first concern is about the absence of SC29
>> > > numbered documents about important discussion
>> > > topics relevant to OFF. This is a fact. I am going
>> > > to study WG11 numbered documents as well.
>> > >
>> > > Regards,
>> > > Makoto
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 2020年10月1日(木) 8:08 Youngkwon Lim <yklwhite at gmail.com>:
>> > >>
>> > >> Dear MURATA-san,
>> > >>
>> > >> I would like to remind you the ISO code of conduct when you 
>>participate this AHG.
>> > >>
>> > >> In addition, more importantly, I have serious concern about your 
>>first concern as it is not based on any facts and not even relevant to 
>>the AHG discussion. It is a matter for SC 29.
>> > >>
>> > >> Sincerely,
>> > >> Young
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ------ Original Message ------
>> > >> From: "MURATA Makoto" <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>
>> > >> To: "Levantovsky, Vladimir" <Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>
>> > >> Cc: "mpeg-otspec" <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>
>> > >> Sent: 09/30/20 17:42:57
>> > >> Subject: Re: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Agendas and minutes of the Font AHG
>> > >>
>> > >> I have two concerns.
>> > >>
>> > >> First, do P-members of SC29 not belonging to the
>> > >> Font AHG have access to important information?
>> > >> If nothing except balloted texts is available, national
>> > >> bodies are not well informed. For example,
>> > >> was India well informed when some decisions
>> > >> in the Font AHG are very relevant to them?
>> > >>
>> > >> Second, how consensus has been declared in
>> > >> the Font AHG?
>> > >>
>> > >> > [Note: Consensus is defined as general agreement, characterised 
>>by
>> > >> > the absence of sustained opposition to substantial issues by 
>>any
>> > >> > important part of the concerned interests and by a process that
>> > >> > involves seeking to take into account the views of all parties
>> > >> > concerned and to reconcile any conflicting arguments. Consensus 
>>need
>> > >> > not imply unanimity. (ISO/IEC Guide 2:1996)]
>> > >>
>> > >> If few agendas and minutes are available and
>> > >> everything is recorded as part of AHG reports,
>> > >> (and when some members of the AHG
>> > >> still oppose to "consensus"), I think that it
>> > >> is hard to defend consensus in the past.
>> > >>
>> > >> Regards,
>> > >> Makoto
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> 2020年10月1日(木) 4:24 Levantovsky, Vladimir 
>><Vladimir.Levantovsky at monotype.com>:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> AHG on Font Format conducts its business online via email list 
>>and shared documents (either proposals shared by their authors or WG 
>>public output documents shared with AHG members for review. The AHG 
>>reports are provided for each WG meeting and summarize AHG activities.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> The AHG typically does not conduct any work via meetings (unless 
>>this is specifically indicated as part of the mandate), so the fact 
>>that you couldn’t find any “minutes” or “resolutions” isn’t a surprise 
>>– by the very nature of our work we submit recommendations to the WG 
>>(as part of the AHG report), but we do not make resolutions (like WGs 
>>do).
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Hope this helps,
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Vladimir
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> From: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec-bounces at lists.aau.at> On Behalf 
>>Of MURATA Makoto
>> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 11:59 PM
>> > >>> To: mpeg-otspec <mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at>
>> > >>> Subject: [MPEG-OTSPEC] Agendas and minutes of the Font AHG
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Folks,
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I am investigating the email archive available
>> > >>>
>> > >>> at https://lists.aau.at/pipermail/mpeg-otspec/.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I searched for "agenda", "minutes", and "report".
>> > >>>
>> > >>> They appear in the email archive several times. A
>> > >>>
>> > >>> few of them are available as attachments.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> But the others are no longer available at the
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Yahoo ML archive.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> There are some AHG reports (as part of emails),
>> > >>>
>> > >>> but they do not look like minutes or resolutions
>> > >>>
>> > >>> of the AHG. As the convenor of SC34/WG4,
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I write reports but they are not considered as
>> > >>>
>> > >>> authoritative documents.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> The document archive of WG11 at https://isotc.iso.org
>> > >>>
>> > >>> is also gone.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I will contact the SC29 secretariat and try to find
>> > >>>
>> > >>> more.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Regards,
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Makoto
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> 2020年9月27日(日) 17:44 MURATA Makoto <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Folks,
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> The document repository of SC29 has records of ballots
>> > >>>
>> > >>> in the past. I downloaded the summaries of 16 ballots
>> > >>>
>> > >>> related to OFF and had a quick look at them.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> All countries except US have always said
>> > >>>
>> > >>> YES without comments. There are a few
>> > >>>
>> > >>> exceptions, but they are one-paragraph
>> > >>>
>> > >>> editorial comments attached to Yes.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> It is only US that has made non-trivial comments.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Although there appear to be different opinions around
>> > >>>
>> > >>> color fonts, I find no discussion documents in the SC29
>> > >>>
>> > >>> document repository about them. I might be
>> > >>>
>> > >>> missing something since the document archive of
>> > >>>
>> > >>> WG11 is not available now. I will contact the SC29
>> > >>>
>> > >>> committee officer about this.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> --
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Regards,
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Makoto
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> --
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Regards,
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Makoto
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> mpeg-otspec mailing list
>> > >>> mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at
>> > >>> https://lists.aau.at/mailman/listinfo/mpeg-otspec
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> Regards,
>> > >> Makoto
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> mpeg-otspec mailing list
>> > >> mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at
>> > >> https://lists.aau.at/mailman/listinfo/mpeg-otspec
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Regards,
>> > > Makoto
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > mpeg-otspec mailing list
>> > > mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at
>> > > https://lists.aau.at/mailman/listinfo/mpeg-otspec
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Regards,
>> > Makoto
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > mpeg-otspec mailing list
>> > mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at
>> > https://lists.aau.at/mailman/listinfo/mpeg-otspec
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > mpeg-otspec mailing list
>> > mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at
>> > https://lists.aau.at/mailman/listinfo/mpeg-otspec
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Regards,
>>Makoto
>>_______________________________________________
>>mpeg-otspec mailing list
>>mpeg-otspec at lists.aau.at
>>https://lists.aau.at/mailman/listinfo/mpeg-otspec
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