[MPEG-OTSPEC] Proposal to discontinue the AdHoc Group

[Jean-Baptiste Morizot]

Once the charter is accepted, can the scope be more specific and can we
vote on adding "maintaining OFF spec" as one of its goals?

Le lun. 21 sept. 2020 à 18:56, Behdad Esfahbod <behdad at behdad.org> a écrit :

> As to what to replace AHG with, I already proposed that and was discussed
> at the previous video meeting: that work be done in W3C WG and result
> trickle down into OFF.
>
> But in the month since that meeting it has been fully forgotten that this
> was discussed and now the chairs of the W3C CG that was formed after my
> proposal seem to think OFF is out of scope for that group.
>
> behdad
> http://behdad.org/
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 10:52 AM Behdad Esfahbod <behdad at behdad.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Crossland <dcrossland at google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:22 AM Behdad Esfahbod <behdad at behdad.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 9:16 AM Dave Crossland <dcrossland at google.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 10:53 AM Behdad Esfahbod <behdad at behdad.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 7:10 AM Dave Crossland <dcrossland at google.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, I see no reason to discontinue the AHG while the possibility
>>>>>>> that it can be reformed is so clear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Is so clear".. as in, the chair continues to completely deny that
>>>>>> there is any problem?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Vlad did not deny there is a problem. He asked for you to provide more
>>>>> substance.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> He has continually been praising the AHG as a model of how to do work.
>>>> I'm not asking he to agree with any of my allegations, but to acknowledge
>>>> that there are outstanding allegations of problems, and provide me a way to
>>>> present them to a fair and impartial group who has authority. He has
>>>> refused to so far.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What I hear Vlad saying is that he DOES acknowledges that there are
>>> outstanding allegations of problems,
>>>
>>
>> Can you point out where he does that?
>>
>>
>>> and in return he would like you to do 2 things:
>>>
>>
>> There is no "in return".
>>
>>
>>> 1. Acknowledge that there are aspects of the past/status-quo that are
>>> successful. I think this would make you seem more reasonable.
>>>
>>
>> Seriously? No abuser is abusive all the time. Variable-fonts were a great
>> success. I understand boasting others' ego is much more effective to get
>> them to agree with me. But I had a moral awakening in the past six months
>> and stopped doing that. I've been doing that since 2014 and I regret it now.
>>
>>
>>> Adam Twardoch is often modelling this kind of 'reasonable' way of
>>> communicating, being polite - even joking around - while also making
>>> serious points.
>>>
>>
>> Great. Women at work are also told they can smile more if they want to be
>> promoted equally as men are.
>>
>>
>>> I myself learned, from him and others, that it is useful to do this,
>>> because it encourages my audience to actually listen to me, instead of
>>> forming a knee-jerk emotionally negative reaction to not listen and dismiss
>>> what I am saying out of hand.
>>>
>>
>> I'm talking about rights. You are talking about norms.
>>
>>
>>> I see that you feel strong emotions about this situation, and want to
>>> express them - and that asking you to "calm down" is actually escalating
>>> the emotional charge rather than de-escalating it (which is called "tone
>>> policing" and is a well-documented social dynamic, if not well-known.)
>>>
>>
>> Correct. Thanks for acknowledging that.
>>
>>
>>> So I want to be explicit that I am not asking you to communicate
>>> differently, but in saying "I proposal to discontinue the AdHoc Group," I
>>> am keen to hear from you what should replace it, and that will also
>>> involve enumerating the aspects of the AHG that are successful and seeking
>>> to retain.
>>>
>>
>> The part that is good and I want to keep: be group of *experts*, not
>> countries. The part that is bad and needs to be replaced: being adhoc.
>> Hence my proposal to incorporate as W3C WG.
>>
>>
>>> 2. Provide concrete examples of what you are complaining about, or the
>>> context in which, what you are complaining did not happen, has occurred in.
>>>
>>
>> I provided over a dozen technical examples on this list already. I will
>> record a video of my personal allegations and publish this week.
>>
>>
>>> In order for Vlad to provide you or me or anyone in the AHG some special
>>> access to ISO people, beyond emails to this list, I think it is valid for
>>> him to ask us provide at the main points we want to make, first, so that
>>> Vlad can send a request to the possible 'judge' people to specially spend
>>> their time and attention on some matter.
>>>
>>
>> So if I walk into a bank and tell the teller that I want to talk to their
>> supervisor, they should demand to hear what I want to talk to the
>> supervisor about and decide whether to give me access or not? As I
>> explained on Twitter in a thread that I believe you read, that's broken
>> because is prone to hijack:
>>
>>   https://twitter.com/behdadesfahbod/status/1295804748499623937
>>
>>
>>> I think that is necessary in order for a judge to decide to spend the
>>> time, because the AHG is open to the general public, and "frivolous"
>>> complaints often happen.
>>>
>>
>> That's why I put my reputation behind my complaints. Even then no one
>> with powers stepped in or offered to hear me out. A few people outside our
>> immediate industry did, and they have been immensely helpful to me to
>> navigate the ISO/W3C, etc.
>>
>>
>>> I am quite sure that with the massive increase in volume of emails to
>>> this list in the last few months, not every message is being read and
>>> considered.
>>>
>>
>> Exactly. Hence trying to figure out *who* I have to talk to before I
>> spend days of writing that will not be read by anyone who can do anything
>> about it.
>>
>>
>>> We were just discussing yesterday in
>>> https://github.com/MPEGGroup/OpenFontFormat/issues/12#issuecomment-695879127
>>> that the MERG table may be a good concrete example of such substance to
>>> complain about, for example.
>>>
>>
>> I have provided over a dozen:
>>
>> https://lists.aau.at/pipermail/mpeg-otspec/2020-August/001925.html
>> https://lists.aau.at/pipermail/mpeg-otspec/2020-August/002017.html
>>
>> But you just keep asking me for evidence while completely ignoring it
>> when I provide!
>>
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