[MPEG-OTSPEC] Proposal to discontinue the AdHoc Group

[Behdad Esfahbod]

As to what to replace AHG with, I already proposed that and was discussed
at the previous video meeting: that work be done in W3C WG and result
trickle down into OFF.

But in the month since that meeting it has been fully forgotten that this
was discussed and now the chairs of the W3C CG that was formed after my
proposal seem to think OFF is out of scope for that group.

behdad
http://behdad.org/


On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 10:52 AM Behdad Esfahbod <behdad at behdad.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Crossland <dcrossland at google.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:22 AM Behdad Esfahbod <behdad at behdad.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 9:16 AM Dave Crossland <dcrossland at google.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 10:53 AM Behdad Esfahbod <behdad at behdad.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 7:10 AM Dave Crossland <dcrossland at google.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, I see no reason to discontinue the AHG while the possibility that
>>>>>> it can be reformed is so clear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Is so clear".. as in, the chair continues to completely deny that
>>>>> there is any problem?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Vlad did not deny there is a problem. He asked for you to provide more
>>>> substance.
>>>>
>>>
>>> He has continually been praising the AHG as a model of how to do work.
>>> I'm not asking he to agree with any of my allegations, but to acknowledge
>>> that there are outstanding allegations of problems, and provide me a way to
>>> present them to a fair and impartial group who has authority. He has
>>> refused to so far.
>>>
>>
>> What I hear Vlad saying is that he DOES acknowledges that there are
>> outstanding allegations of problems,
>>
>
> Can you point out where he does that?
>
>
>> and in return he would like you to do 2 things:
>>
>
> There is no "in return".
>
>
>> 1. Acknowledge that there are aspects of the past/status-quo that are
>> successful. I think this would make you seem more reasonable.
>>
>
> Seriously? No abuser is abusive all the time. Variable-fonts were a great
> success. I understand boasting others' ego is much more effective to get
> them to agree with me. But I had a moral awakening in the past six months
> and stopped doing that. I've been doing that since 2014 and I regret it now.
>
>
>> Adam Twardoch is often modelling this kind of 'reasonable' way of
>> communicating, being polite - even joking around - while also making
>> serious points.
>>
>
> Great. Women at work are also told they can smile more if they want to be
> promoted equally as men are.
>
>
>> I myself learned, from him and others, that it is useful to do this,
>> because it encourages my audience to actually listen to me, instead of
>> forming a knee-jerk emotionally negative reaction to not listen and dismiss
>> what I am saying out of hand.
>>
>
> I'm talking about rights. You are talking about norms.
>
>
>> I see that you feel strong emotions about this situation, and want to
>> express them - and that asking you to "calm down" is actually escalating
>> the emotional charge rather than de-escalating it (which is called "tone
>> policing" and is a well-documented social dynamic, if not well-known.)
>>
>
> Correct. Thanks for acknowledging that.
>
>
>> So I want to be explicit that I am not asking you to communicate
>> differently, but in saying "I proposal to discontinue the AdHoc Group," I
>> am keen to hear from you what should replace it, and that will also
>> involve enumerating the aspects of the AHG that are successful and seeking
>> to retain.
>>
>
> The part that is good and I want to keep: be group of *experts*, not
> countries. The part that is bad and needs to be replaced: being adhoc.
> Hence my proposal to incorporate as W3C WG.
>
>
>> 2. Provide concrete examples of what you are complaining about, or the
>> context in which, what you are complaining did not happen, has occurred in.
>>
>
> I provided over a dozen technical examples on this list already. I will
> record a video of my personal allegations and publish this week.
>
>
>> In order for Vlad to provide you or me or anyone in the AHG some special
>> access to ISO people, beyond emails to this list, I think it is valid for
>> him to ask us provide at the main points we want to make, first, so that
>> Vlad can send a request to the possible 'judge' people to specially spend
>> their time and attention on some matter.
>>
>
> So if I walk into a bank and tell the teller that I want to talk to their
> supervisor, they should demand to hear what I want to talk to the
> supervisor about and decide whether to give me access or not? As I
> explained on Twitter in a thread that I believe you read, that's broken
> because is prone to hijack:
>
>   https://twitter.com/behdadesfahbod/status/1295804748499623937
>
>
>> I think that is necessary in order for a judge to decide to spend the
>> time, because the AHG is open to the general public, and "frivolous"
>> complaints often happen.
>>
>
> That's why I put my reputation behind my complaints. Even then no one with
> powers stepped in or offered to hear me out. A few people outside our
> immediate industry did, and they have been immensely helpful to me to
> navigate the ISO/W3C, etc.
>
>
>> I am quite sure that with the massive increase in volume of emails to
>> this list in the last few months, not every message is being read and
>> considered.
>>
>
> Exactly. Hence trying to figure out *who* I have to talk to before I spend
> days of writing that will not be read by anyone who can do anything about
> it.
>
>
>> We were just discussing yesterday in
>> https://github.com/MPEGGroup/OpenFontFormat/issues/12#issuecomment-695879127
>> that the MERG table may be a good concrete example of such substance to
>> complain about, for example.
>>
>
> I have provided over a dozen:
>
> https://lists.aau.at/pipermail/mpeg-otspec/2020-August/001925.html
> https://lists.aau.at/pipermail/mpeg-otspec/2020-August/002017.html
>
> But you just keep asking me for evidence while completely ignoring it when
> I provide!
>
>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.aau.at/pipermail/mpeg-otspec/attachments/20200921/f4239fc4/attachment.html>