[MPEG-OTSPEC] Proposal to discontinue the AdHoc Group

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Crossland <dcrossland at google.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:22 AM Behdad Esfahbod <behdad at behdad.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 9:16 AM Dave Crossland <dcrossland at google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 10:53 AM Behdad Esfahbod <behdad at behdad.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 7:10 AM Dave Crossland <dcrossland at google.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I see no reason to discontinue the AHG while the possibility that
>>>>> it can be reformed is so clear.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Is so clear".. as in, the chair continues to completely deny that
>>>> there is any problem?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Vlad did not deny there is a problem. He asked for you to provide more
>>> substance.
>>>
>>
>> He has continually been praising the AHG as a model of how to do work.
>> I'm not asking he to agree with any of my allegations, but to acknowledge
>> that there are outstanding allegations of problems, and provide me a way to
>> present them to a fair and impartial group who has authority. He has
>> refused to so far.
>>
>
> What I hear Vlad saying is that he DOES acknowledges that there are
> outstanding allegations of problems,
>

Can you point out where he does that?


> and in return he would like you to do 2 things:
>

There is no "in return".


> 1. Acknowledge that there are aspects of the past/status-quo that are
> successful. I think this would make you seem more reasonable.
>

Seriously? No abuser is abusive all the time. Variable-fonts were a great
success. I understand boasting others' ego is much more effective to get
them to agree with me. But I had a moral awakening in the past six months
and stopped doing that. I've been doing that since 2014 and I regret it now.


> Adam Twardoch is often modelling this kind of 'reasonable' way of
> communicating, being polite - even joking around - while also making
> serious points.
>

Great. Women at work are also told they can smile more if they want to be
promoted equally as men are.


> I myself learned, from him and others, that it is useful to do this,
> because it encourages my audience to actually listen to me, instead of
> forming a knee-jerk emotionally negative reaction to not listen and dismiss
> what I am saying out of hand.
>

I'm talking about rights. You are talking about norms.


> I see that you feel strong emotions about this situation, and want to
> express them - and that asking you to "calm down" is actually escalating
> the emotional charge rather than de-escalating it (which is called "tone
> policing" and is a well-documented social dynamic, if not well-known.)
>

Correct. Thanks for acknowledging that.


> So I want to be explicit that I am not asking you to communicate
> differently, but in saying "I proposal to discontinue the AdHoc Group," I
> am keen to hear from you what should replace it, and that will also
> involve enumerating the aspects of the AHG that are successful and seeking
> to retain.
>

The part that is good and I want to keep: be group of *experts*, not
countries. The part that is bad and needs to be replaced: being adhoc.
Hence my proposal to incorporate as W3C WG.


> 2. Provide concrete examples of what you are complaining about, or the
> context in which, what you are complaining did not happen, has occurred in.
>

I provided over a dozen technical examples on this list already. I will
record a video of my personal allegations and publish this week.


> In order for Vlad to provide you or me or anyone in the AHG some special
> access to ISO people, beyond emails to this list, I think it is valid for
> him to ask us provide at the main points we want to make, first, so that
> Vlad can send a request to the possible 'judge' people to specially spend
> their time and attention on some matter.
>

So if I walk into a bank and tell the teller that I want to talk to their
supervisor, they should demand to hear what I want to talk to the
supervisor about and decide whether to give me access or not? As I
explained on Twitter in a thread that I believe you read, that's broken
because is prone to hijack:

  https://twitter.com/behdadesfahbod/status/1295804748499623937


> I think that is necessary in order for a judge to decide to spend the
> time, because the AHG is open to the general public, and "frivolous"
> complaints often happen.
>

That's why I put my reputation behind my complaints. Even then no one with
powers stepped in or offered to hear me out. A few people outside our
immediate industry did, and they have been immensely helpful to me to
navigate the ISO/W3C, etc.


> I am quite sure that with the massive increase in volume of emails to this
> list in the last few months, not every message is being read and considered.
>

Exactly. Hence trying to figure out *who* I have to talk to before I spend
days of writing that will not be read by anyone who can do anything about
it.


> We were just discussing yesterday in
> https://github.com/MPEGGroup/OpenFontFormat/issues/12#issuecomment-695879127
> that the MERG table may be a good concrete example of such substance to
> complain about, for example.
>

I have provided over a dozen:

https://lists.aau.at/pipermail/mpeg-otspec/2020-August/001925.html
https://lists.aau.at/pipermail/mpeg-otspec/2020-August/002017.html

But you just keep asking me for evidence while completely ignoring it when
I provide!

>
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